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DEBATE 



ON 



RESOLUTION TO INVESTIGATE THE PAYMENT OF MONEY 

APPROPRIATED BY BILL FOR RELIEF OF THE 

BOOK AGENTS OF THE METHODIST 

EPISCOPAL CHURCH SOUTH. 



REMARKS 



"^.^ 



Senators LODUE, BATE, PASCO, CLAY, BACON, 

LINDSAY, HOAR, CHANDLEli, TILLMAN, 

TELLER, BERRY, MORCUN, 



/VlSri3 OTITEIJS, 



IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES, 



June 9, 10, 13, and 14, 1893. 



WASEEIlSrGXON', 

181)8. 






Ea-so 



G8450 



CLAIM OF METHODIST BOOK CONOEEN SOUTH. 



Thursdaij, Jane 9, ISOS. 

jSIv. lodge. I offer the resolntioi) which I send to the desk. 
The VICE-PRESIDENT. The resolution will be read. 
Tlie Secretary read as follows: 

Rrsolvcd, That the Committeo on Claims be directed to inqna-e aud report 
to whom the money was paid under the chiim of the Methodist Bock Concern 
Soiith; and also as to all circumstances connected with the passage of the bill 
providing for the payment of said claim, and with the subsequent payment 
of the money under said act of Congress. 

Mr. LODGE. Mr. President, at the time that that claim was 
before the Senate I offered an amendment providing that not 
more than $5,000 should be paid out of it to any agent or at- 
torney. The very idea of the amendment which I offered was 
received with a great deal of indignation by Senators, and it was 
intimated that it was placing an" affront on honorable men. It 
was stated that all the work connected with the passage of that 
claim was a labor of love, and that the money to be derived from 
it was to be devoted exclusively to benevolent and charitable 
objects. 

I naturally felt at the time, Mr. President, as I have no doubt 
did also the Senator from Maine and the Senator from Connecti- 
cut, who took the same view that I did, that we were put in a 
position of casting an unmerited reflection upon disinterested 
persons. It has now come to my knowledge that there was a con- 
tract at the time the bill passed to pay an agent 35 per cent and 
that the agent who was engaged in getting that legislation has 
received the enormous sum of $100,800 for his services. 

I think, Mr. President, that in view of the manner in which 
Senators were misled on that subject, this matter deserves in- 
quiry at the hands of Congress. 

A telegram was read here by the Senator from Florida [Mr. 
Pasco] from Barbee & Smith, which said: 

Letter 5th received. Tho statement is untrue, and you are hereby au- 
thorized to deny it. 

The Senator from Florida continues: 

I made the statement fully in the letter, which set forth that some agents 
hero would get a very largo percentage of the amount. I knew that it was 
impossible, because they had no authority to make such a bargain. I knew 
that they had too much discretion to make such a bargain, of course, and I 
.suggested to them that they should give mo tho statement which they have, 
and 1 am satisfied there is no foundation whatever for the report. 

And on the telegram which the Senator from Florida read, he 
was fully justified in making tho statement he did to the Senate. 
That telegram was from Barbee & Smith. It was in answer to 
a letter which asked, as I understand, if tho agents were to get a 
large percentage. I have here an interview with Barbee & Smith, 

3147 3 



published in the Memphis (Tenn.) Commercial-Appeal, which 
says: 

Concerning the payment of 3.j ]ier cent of the appropriation to Maj. E. B. 
Stahhnan, Dr. Barbee said: "That is no secret to anyone. The book com- 
mittee made the contract with Major Stahhnan, and it was indorsed in open 
conference. Barbee & Smith had nothins? to do with.it. Major Stahlman 
assumed all responsibility and expense in pushing the claim; and had it not 
passed, his loss would have been about 830,000 or $10,000." 

The newspaper paragraph goes on to say: 

Major Stahhnan is out in a card this afternoon in whichhe defends Messrs. 
Barbee & Smith, but admits that ho got the money. 

I have his letter here from the papers. His defense is that it 
was charged that the contract was for 40 per cent, tliat that was 
wholly untrue, and that the contract was for So per cent. 

Those are the facts, Mr. President. I do not propose to take 
the time of the Senate in reading what I have here, but I will ask 
that these various statements be printed. They contain a state- 
ment from delegates to the conference, an article from the Ziou 
Outlook, published at Nashville, Tenn., Mr. Stahlman's letter of 
explanation 

Mr. COUKRELL. Let them be read at the de.sk. 

Mr. BATE. If the Senator wants the papers to go into the 
Record, they should be read. 

Mr. LODGE. They are pretty long. 

Mr. BATE. We can not help that. It is a charge against the 
church, and it should be known what it is. 

Mr. LODGE. It is no charge against the church — none what- 
ever — but these newspaper articles make a serious charge against 
the age7it who put this claim through, and who, out of the $'.^88,- 
000 that were to go, as we were told, to invalid and aged clergymen 
and to their widows and orphans, put §100,009 into his i)Ocket. 
That is the charge. 

I am sure that that great denomination will feel as much cha- 
grined at the circumstances of the passage of this claim as the 
Senate can feel. The charge relates solely to those men who de- 
ceived Senators, because if that contract had been known, that 
bill would not have passed the Senate as it did, nor would it have 
passed the House, either. It was only because both branches of 
Congress were entirely misled as to the payment to be made out 
of that claim that it was enabled to get through. 

I think, Mr. President, that for oui- own self-raspect wc ought 
to inquire into this thing and see if we have been misled, and if 
so, see who did it and how it was done. 

I am perfectly willing to have the extracts read. As I say, they 
contain an interview with Barbee & Smith, a letter of Mr, Stahl- 
man, a newspaper statement from the Commercial-Appeal, of 
Memphis, an editorial article from the Zion Outlook, published at 
Nashville, Tenn., and a statement by Mr. A. W. Newsom, of 
Memphis, in the Commercial-Appeal. If it is desired to have 
these papers read, 1 have no objection, but I suggest, to save time, 
that they be printed iu the Record in connection with my 
remarks. 

Mr. BATE. Mr. President 

Mr. HALE. Let me suggest to the Senator from Tennessee that 
this is a most important matter, involving not only the action of 
the Senate in the past, but it ought to be a monition to us in the 
future. Some of ns took part in the debate attendant upon the 
passage of the bill. The charges here are very clear and veiy de- 

UH7 



cided, and we ought to Iciiow what they are by reading them. I 
siiggest that they all be printed in the Record, and that the reso- 
lution of the Senator from Massachusetts go over until to-morrow 
morning, in order that Senators may see just what the case is. 
We can" not get at it merely by hearing the papers read. 

But there is some responsibility resting upon the Senate for 
having passed this bill, having crowded it through upon the as- 
sumption, which was believed then to be the truth, that no lob- 
byists had been engaged, to use the language of this lobbyist, in 
pushing this matter. 

Therefore, I suggest again— not to take the Senator from Ten- 
nessee off the floor — that all these papers be printed in the Record, 
so that we may see them, and then that the resolution go over 
until to-morrow morning, because we can in that way act more 
understandingly. 

Mr. BATE. Mr. President, I have no objection to the printing 
of the articles in the Record which have been referred to by the 
Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodge]. I quite agree with 
him that there ought to be an investigation; and in the absence of 
any better proposition, to go to the bottom of this matter, I shall 
favor the resolution offered by the Senator from Massachusetts 
and let it go before the Committee on Claims, so that we may as- 
certain how this thing has been done. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. If there be no objection, tlie papers 
presented by the Senator from Massachusetts [JVIr. Lodge] will 
be printed in the Record. 

The papers referred to are as follows: 

[Prom the Memphis (Tenn.) Commercial-Appeal, May 28, 1898.] 

STAHLMAN'S niCH pick-up— fee of over $100,000 FOR LOBBYING SEKV- 

ices— measuhe befopve congress— methodist episcopal publtsiiino 
house at nashville pays it -messrs. barbee & smith involved— 
senators suspect lobbying and raise the question, only to be con- 
fronted by deniaiis from the concern's managers that the fund 
was to be so dissipated— congress to be heard from. 

Commercial- Appeal Bureau, 
lSf,7 Pennsylvania avenue, Washington, D. C, May -^7, 1S98. 
E. B. Stalilman, of Nashville, who led the lobby forces here in advocacy of 
the bill recently passed to pay the Southern Methodist Church §288,000 for 
use and occupancy of its publishing house at Nashviile during the war, re- 
ceives $100,800 lor his services as lobbyist. 

This announcement has amazed Congress. The bill passed both Houses, 
notably the Senate, upon the distinct understanding that no lobbyist was to 
receive any appreciable part of the amount, and statements to that effect 
were made repeatedly by honest but, it seems, misinformed Senators. 

The bill would never have passed had Stahlnmn's prospective share in the 
proceeds been known. Hi.s contract with the church call.s for 35 per cent, 
and the recent general conference in Baltimore, after investigating tlie sub- 
ject, approved the allowance. 

All Southern and many Northern Senators were enrnestly advocating the 
bill, but they were misled throughout upon representations that the money 
was to go wholly to the church, and no appreciable part was to land with a 
lobbyist. A protracted fight upon this point was made. The presence of 
recognized lobbyists about the Capitol had been observed, and Senators sus- 
pected the church would lose a large part of the appropriation through the 
unreasonable avarice of men who, under the leadership of Stahlman , thronged 
the corridors. 

LODGE HAD SUSPICIONS. 

Senator Lodge moved an amendment to the House bill, declaring that not 
more than 85,000 of the money should go to any agent or agents. The auiend- 
ment was defeated upon the presentation of a telegram from the Methodist 
Publishing House authorities, denying the report that lobbyists were to re- 
ceive a largo part of the money. The telegram was addressed to Senator 
Pasco, and was apparently unreserved in its denial. 

Congress looks upon the recent disclo-iures as the development of a scan- 
dal. When the bill wa.9 up for passage in the Senate, on March H. Seiiator 
TiLLiMAN, of South Carolina, demanded to know of Senator Bate whotlur 
3447 



the attorneys were to get any of the appropriation, and in response Senator 
Bate said: 

"I will take pleasure in saying that as I heard such a rumor whispered 
around yesterday and to day, I got a telejrram, as also did the chairman of 
the subcommittee on claims, from Barbee & Smith, who are the head of tho 
concern, stating there was not a word of truth in the statement that tho fund 
was to be diverted in any such way." 

Following the statement Ii'om Senator Bate, Senator Pasco, of Florida, 
had the following to say: 

DEXIAL to senator PASCO. 

"As to the question asked by the Senator from South Carolina [Mr. Till- 
man], it is proper to say that I heard a rumor that was whispered about tho 
Senate Chamber a few days ago to the effect that some claim agent would get 
a very largo proportitm of the amount. On Saturday last, when I heard that 
report, I sat down and wrote Messrs. Barbee & Smith. I was thoroughly satis- 
Ded that the rei>ort had no foundation whatever in fact. But I stated the 
matter at length to them, and stated that I wished to have in my possession 
a statement from them which I could use in private, or personally on the floor 
of the Senate if necessary, and yesterday I got this reply to my letter: 'Let- 
ter 5th received. Tho statement is untrue, and you are hereby authorized to 
deny it.' I made the statement fully in the letter, which set forth that somo 
agents here would got a vei'y large percentage of the amount. I knew that 
it was impossible, because they had no authority to make such a bargain. I 
knew that they had too much discretion to make such a bargain, of course, 
and I suggested to them that they should give mo the statement, which they 
have, and I am satisfied there is no foundation wliatever for the report." 

Senator Morgan, of Alabama, gave similar assurance. 

Senator Lodge, of Massachusetts, expressed gratification at the state- 
ments, but insisted upon offering an amendment in these words: 

" Provided, That not more than $.5,000 of the sum hei-eby appropriated shall 
be paid to any agent or attorney, or to any other person, for securing tho 
payments of the claims or for any service whatever." 

In opposition to this proviso it was urged by Senators Berry and PASCO 
that its incorporation would require the bill to go back to the House, which 
would delay and possibly defeat its passage. Furthermore, Senator Hoar, 
of Massachusetts, suggested that it was '"a pretty serious affront to men of 
high character and standing, representing a concern of high standing, to put 
into a bill a proviso that they have not traded with claim agents and lobby- 
ists, after that assertion on their part." 

Mr. Lodge insisted upon his amendment, but it was defeated. 
UP AX the general conference. 

At the general conference in Baltimore, when it became known that more 
than S100,()(X) was Stahlmfin's share of the recovery, there was in some quarters 
great dissatisfaction and an investigation proceeded. It developed that 
Stahlmau had an ironclad contract with the Publishing House authorities, 
whereby he was to receive 35 per cent of the recovery. 

Congress is certain to be heard from upon the entire transaction, and It is 
possible that an investigation may be proposed, since there have been some 
ugly insinuations made as to the disposition of money here for tho passage 
of tho bill. The Senators who opposed the Lodge amendment will demand 
of Barbee & Smith an explanation of their telegram. Three Senators have 
declared to me their intention of speaking upon the matter. 

In the Hou.se indignation is general among the members familiar with the 
facts as developed at tho conference. 

L. P. M. 

defense of barbee & smith— THAT IS the only issue, as the STAHTi- 
MAN FEE IS ADMITTED. 

Nashville, May 2S, 1S93. 

Rev. J. D. Barbee, of Barbee & Smith, agents for the Methodist Publishing 
House, when asked to night to state the position of Barbee & Smithinregard 
to the reported trouble over tlio Southern Methodist war claim, preserved a 
dignified silence. He declared that Barbee & Smith were invincible in their 
integrity, U])rightncss, and tho consciousness of acting in the interest of 
honesty at all times. He did not think that these hysterical outbursts, which 
arc made against the Publishing House every few years, needed answering, 
and he would not deviate from the rule of the firm, which is to ignore all 
newspaper slanders at all times. 

Concerning the payment of ;J5 per cent of the appropriation to Maj. E. B. 
Stahlman, Dr. Barbee said: "That is no secret to anyone. The book com- 
mittee made the contract with Major Stahlman, and it was indorsed in open 
conference. Barbee & Smith had nothing to do with it. Major Stahlman 
a.ssumed all responsibility and expense in pushing the claim, and had it not 
passed his loss would have been about $30,000 or $10,0(X)." 

Major Stahlman is out in a card this afternoon, in which he defends Messrs. 
Barbee & Smith, but admits that he got the money. 
3417 



LFroin the Nashville Banner, Saturday evening, May 38, 1898.] 

METHODIST GUUIlCn CLAIM— A STATEMENT IN ItEGAIJD TO IT I5\' MR. E. B. 
STAHLMAN. 

To the Public: 

My attention has been called to an article in the American of this morning, 
dated Washington, May 37, headed "Methodist war claim— Talk in Wash- 
ington of a Congressional investigation — Trouble over fees," etc. 

This alleged "Washingtc^n dispatch bears the earmarks and was, in my 
.indgment, inspired, if not actually written, by parties in Nashville hostile 
especially to Barbeo & Smith. 

The article as published is full of misstatements libelous in character. It 
seeks to put Barbee & Smith in the attitude of having stated a falsehood to 
Senators in order to secure the payment of the claim. It says: 

"Senator Pasco, who had charge of the claim, read a letter from Messrs. 
Barbee & Smith stating that no agreement for the payment of any attorney 
or attorneys had been made, and that the only money expended or that 
would be expended had been a few dollars to lawyers for drawing the bill 
which was then before Congress. Telegrams to the same effect were also 
read." 

I pronounce this statement unqualifiedly false. There were no such tele- 
gram or letter sent by Barbee & Smith to Senator Pasco or anyone else. 
The facts are Senator Pasco wrote Barbee & Smith that it was rumored 
that they (Barbee & Smith) had made a contract to pay an attorney 40 per 
cent, and asking whether or not this was true. Barbee & Smith answered: 
"The statement is untrue, and you are hereby authorized to deny it." 

Now, I aver that this telegram of Barbeo & Smith represented the facts, 
first, because there was no contract made to pay 40 per cent, and secondly, 
because the only agreement with reference to the payment of fees was made 
by the book committee, and not by Barbeo & Smith. 

The attempt to make it appear that this telegram of Barbee & Smith mis- 
led the Senate, and that it was because of this that the bill passed, is without 
v^arrant. The bill vv'ould have passed if Barbeo & Smith had not answered 
Senator Pasco at all. The claim was pending on its merits, on favorable re- 
ports of committees and briefs submitted by me, and on its merits would 
have passed the Senate. The effort of certain Senators to embody in the bill 
a provision that no foe should be paid was regarded by fair-minded Senators 
as an uncalled-for interference— an intermeddling with the private rights of 
the claimants. 

The only question for the Senate to determine was whether or not the 
claim was just, and, if just, to vaj it; if unjust, to refuse to do so, and there 
was never a doubt in my mind but what the Senate by an overwhelming 
majority would agree that the claim was just and ought to be paid. More- 
over, there is not a Senator or Member of Congress in Washington at all 
familiar with legislation relating to war claims who does not know that all 
such claims are represented by attorneys who have an agreement for the 
payment of fees, aggregating iii many cases as much as TiO per cent. I have 
before mo to-day claims just as meritorious as the Publishing House claim, 
aggregating nearly $3,000,(100, upon which the claimants have agreed to pay 
certain attorneys 50 per cent of the amount recovered, and because these at- 
torneys have not been successful in prosecuting their claims these claimants 
are invoking my aid and proposing in some cases to pay me a fee in addition 
to the large sums they have already agreed to pay their attorneys. 

All of this hurrah respecting the proposition to return the money to the 
Government, etc., is mere bosh, and, in my judgment, comes from enemies 
of Barbee & Smith, di.sappointed office seekers, who would like to have se- 
cured the i^laces to which Barbee & Smith were reelected by the last general 
conference. 

A sufficient answer to all of this tirade is to say that the general confer- 
ence, consisting of the bishops and leading ministers and laymen of the 
church, had this matter under consideration during its recent session in Balti- 
more, and by a large majority over all opposing candidates reelected Barbee & 
Smith as Book Agents and increased their salaries. It is proper to say that 
this article is written on my own responsibility, withoitt the knowledge or 
consent of Barbee & Smith, and that they will be surprised when they see it 
in print. 

E. B. STAHLMAN. 
[From the C'ommercial Appeal, Mem]ihis, June 1, 1898.] 

now XnEY VIEWED IT— A DEr,EGATE TO THE OENERAT^ METHODIST COX- 
FERENCE TALKS— IlEV^IEW THE STAHLMAN CASE— A. AV. NEWSOM, A MEM- 
PniAN, STATES THE POSITION OF THE CHUKCH IN THE MATTER— IT WAS 
ON AN OLD CLAIM. 

Probably not in the history of the Southern Methodist Church has any of 
the official acts of the general conference attracted such general and wide- 
spread attention as that by which Maj. E. B. Stahlman, cf Nashville, was al- 
lowed a fee of something like $l(!0,(;0i) tor services rendered in getting the bill 
3447 



8 

through Congress allowing one of tlio oldest and among the largest of tho 
Southern war claims against tho Government. 

It will be remembered tliat this claim grew out of the seizure of the prop- 
erty of the Southwestern Publishing Company, which is a part of the South- 
ern Methodist Church, and tho property was located at Nashville. Briefly 
stated, the history ot that part of the transaction is this: When the Federals 
captured Nashville this publishing house, with all the supplies and stocks, was 
converted to tho use of the Federal Government for war purposes, and after 
the tcrmiiiatitm of that struggle, when a bill was passed by Congress contem- 
plating tlio iiayment of damages to property and tho amounts of other prop- 
erty wliich had been absolutely controverted, the Southern Methodist Church 
authorities made out ascheduloof their lo.sses. audit aggregated over $400,000. 
It was this account that was paid by the allowing of $38S,OO0at the recent ses- 
sion of Congress. 

The schedule of account bad been before Congress for about thirty-three 
years, and though numerous attempts had been made by the church to get a 
settlement, it was impossible to succeed until last spring a year ago, when 
the J;,'S^,UOO claim was allowed. 

AVIIAT A DELEGATE SAYS. 

A. W. Newsom, a Front-street merchant of Memphis, was one of the dele- 

fates from this district to the recent General Conference of the Southern 
lethodist Church, which was held at Baltimore, and yesterday he was inter- 
viewed by a Commei-cial Appeal reporter regarding this matter. He is a 
member of the standing committee on publishing interests, and it was be- 
fore that committee that tho proof in the case was submitted. 

It will bo remembered that Barbee & Smith are the biisiness executive 
heads of the publishing house at Nashville, but operate the business and con- 
duct the general affairs of that institution under the direct advice and super- 
vision of what is called the book committee of tho church. Well, it was in 
the report of this committee and Barbee & Smith that the facts in the Stahl- 
man matter and the history of the fight before Congress came to the cogni- 
zance of the general conference. As is usual in such cases, this report, whicli 
was probably a joint one, was referred to tho standing committee on publish- 
ing interests. 

When Mr. Newsom entered the discus.?ion of the question, lie first reviewed 
the substance of that report on this item and said: "This report detailed all 
tho facts in connection with the attempts whicli have been made by tho 
church to collect that money, and the statement was made that the fight had 
been going on for thirty-three years. It stated that first one and then an- 
other had been employed to represent the church before Congress, but every 
one of them gave up the case without having accomplished anything until 
Major Stahlman was retained. You know how it is when one has such a 
claim to collect. It is not usual to send good money after a probability, but 
before the contract with Major Stahlman was made this report showed that 
we bad paid one man $1;?,(XI0 in cash, and yet he got nothing in return. 

Tho result was that thereafter contracts were made upon the contingent- 
fee plan. If the account was settled, in other words, the church's representa- 
tive got such and such a per cent of the not proceeds. I remember that one 
of these contracts called for 1.5 per cent, but that man threw the case up after 
several years of effort. Then another had a contract to receive 25 per cent, 
but the result was the same; and after that a contract was made with some 
one to give him, say, 15 or 30 per cejit and a positive fee of $.50,000, provided ho 
was successful. All of them gave up the case, though, and after so long a time 
tlie church was given to understand that it might be possible to settle tho 
matter if a reduction in the amount of the account would be made, and that 
is how the amount we received come to be only $3bS,000. 

THEY LOOK TO STAHLMAN. 

When Sfaior Stahlman took hold of the case the agreement was that he 
should stand all the expenses of the work before Congress and compromise 
the church in no way, and his remimeration was fixed at 35 per cent of tho 
proceeds. This seemed satisfactory to all parties, and certainly is not as 
largo as many contingent fees of similar character are, for it is my informa- 
tion that the attorneys and rei)resentatives of the y)arties who have received 
settlements for war claims are usually paid 50 per cent. Major Stahlman 
went to work on the case and succeeded, and the committee of which I was 
a member thought he was entitled to the money, and so did the conference. 
The amount was therefore allowed. It must be remembered that this was 
not a donation from the Government to the Southern Methodist Church, 
but was the payment of a war claim for property which was actually seized 
and used by tho CJovernmcut for war iiurposes, and the church was put to a 
big expense to collect it. 

"What is your exx)lanation of the statement from Barbee & Smith, which 
was read on tho floor of the Senate by Senator Pasco in connection with that 
'large amount' wliich was rumored to have been promised to the lobbyist 
who got the bill through?' 
3447 



THEY CORRECT A REPORT. 

"In the first place, Barbee & Smith have been done an injustice as to that 
matter, for the reason that all the facts in connection with the correspond- 
ence between the Senator and the firm have not been printed. When this 
matter came before onr committee, we read the Qonouessional Record of 
that day, and after having familiarized ourselves with that side of the ques- 
tion we'liad the correspondence between Barbee & Smith and the Senator 
submitted to us. The letter which Senator Pasco wrote to the firm in Nash- 
ville was to the effect that it had been stated around the floor of the Senate 
and House that iO per cent of the proceeds of the bill was to go to the lobby- 
ists, and asked that if the statement was untrue that he be wired to that 
effect immediately, so that the denial could be used on the floor. 

" Of course the answer of Barbee & Smith was that the statement was not 
true, but they, as clients, did not feel called upon to tell what per cent had 
been agreed upon, and the committee sustained them in their position and 
showed its confidence by recommendinsr that they be retained in their present 
positions, which was done. The peculiar fact regarding this entire contro- 
versy is the justness of the claim has never been questioned. 

" Now, I know nothing in the world about the methods which were used by 
Ma.ior Stahlman in pushing that bill through Congress, nor does the church. 
I assume that he employed attorneys and assistants to aid him in getting up 
the proof, but further than that I have no idea, except that that must have 
cost something. 

The telegram referred to was as follows: "Letter 5th received. The state- 
ment is untrue, and you are hereby authorized to deny it." All of this cor- 
respondence was submitted with the proof in the case, and it was upon that 
the committee acted. 

THE MATTER DISCUSSED. 

To ihe Commcrcicd Appeal: 

Of course it is true a largo sum of money was used in securing the pay- 
ment of the claim of the Southern Methodist Book Concern. No one ought 
attempt to deny it, and no one ought to be surprised. If money had not been 
used, and used freely, the claim never would have been paid. Every one 
knows, or ought to know, it is impossible to get a just and honest claim paid 
by our Government unless we spend half the amount employing lobbyists to 
work it through. Even then, as in this particular case, it requires upward 
of thirty years of fighting to accomplish it. 

The Government is not in the habit of paying her debts until she can no 
longeravoid it. TheagentsfortheBookConcernknew thatif itwasadmitted 
they had to pay out some of this money to outsiders they would get nothing. 
So they refused to admit it. That is about the size of it. And when we think 
of it we can not help but inquire, what business was it of these Congressmen 
how the concern woiild dispose of the money that belonged to them? If the 
Government owed it. no matter if they expected to open up a saloon, run a 
brewery, or give the whole of it to lobbyists, it was no business of these gen- 
tlemen, who, by reason of their own contrariness and a few other qualities 
singular to their station, made it necessary to the success of the claim to em- 
ploy these men. 

I forget who it was, but some distinguished citizen once said he would 
rather be born a good, healthy pauper than to inherit an honest, just claim 
of a million dollars against the Government. 

E. F. M. 
[From Zion's Outlook.] 

A GREAT CALAMITY. 

The disclosures made by the Congressional Record's report, published 
elsewhere in this issue, of the methods employed by our publishing house 
officials in securing the war claim of $288,000 are enough to bring the blush 
to the cheek of every self-respecting iSIethodist. The United States Senate 
was grossly deceived and made to believe that none of this appropriation 
would be used in compensating attornevs. The Senate would not have voted 
the appropriation but for the assurance" thus given them repeatedly that the 
eiitire $288,000 would be wholly and sacredly devoted to the benefit of our 
worn-out preachers and the helpless widows and orphans of deceased preach- 
ers, whose miseries and needs were eloquently pleaded to secure the passage 
of the bill. „ , „ 

This deception of the United States Senate was complete. Senator PASCO 
read the following telegram from our Book Agents to refute the charge that 
a large sutu was to be used in compensating attorneys: 

',' Letter of 5th received. The statement is untrue and you are hereby 
authorized to deny it." „ . 

Notwithstanding this telegram and other assurances to the same eltert 

quoted by other Senators from the same source, our Book Agents, as soon as 

they received the $288,000, paid over $100,800 of it to the attorney employed to 

push the claim. It is the gross fraud and deception practiced iu order tc 

3417 



10 

obtain tlif iipiiro))ri;ition agaiinst which we raise oiii- protest. It is a disgrace 
to Mi-'tbodisiii and a wrong to every pure-minded man and woman and every 
faithful preacher throughout our couimuuiou. It involves us all in a wrong 
for wliioh there is uo defense or apology possible to be made. It is in lino 
with the low and corrupt methods of the avaricious and overreaching trick- 
sters of the world. 

The United States Senate owes it to itself and the country it represents to 
investitjate this fraud. The book committee was cognizant of the di.5grace- 
ful fraud before general conference met, and should have promptly on its 
own motion indignantly refused to retain money secured by such false pre- 
tenses and refunded it to the Government. If they plead lack of authority 
to refund it, we reply that they should have recommended unanimously to 
general conference its return to the Government, with their reasons for 
the recommendation. The general conference should have taken action 
liromjitly, even after this guilty silence on the part of the book committee. 

A number of delegates went to Baltimore righteously indignant at tho 
f i-aud and determined on an investigation by that body, but became strangely 
silent under some potent influence. Very reliable rumor places the source 
of that potent influence which so successfully silenced these brethren and 
])revented an investigation with the plea that an investigation "would dam- 
age the church." We arc pushing investigations for more deflnite informa- 
tion as to the parties who assumed tb.is ignoble rule of suppressionists of an 
investigation into a fraud perpetrated in the name of and for the benefit of 
tho church. 

It is passing strange that strong men, such as we know were in possession 
of tho nauseous facts connected with this ugly transaction, could nave been 
induced to quietness by any sort of influence. Stranger still the plea made 
to persuade them into silence that an investigation or discussion of it would 
injure the church. Have wo come to this low level of party politics and 
Ijolitical methods— covering up crime and .shielding criminals for the good of 
the party ? This is tho cry of party politicians. It is only a party conception 
of the church that too many people and preachers have. The church is only 
esteemed a party— a mere machine. To expose wrong yoa will expose tho 
wrongdoer who' has high official position in tho machine, and thereby you 
will damage the coofflcers in tho machine. Break one link in tho chain 
which forms and holds the blessed ring in power and you may disturb tho 
entire ring. 

Political parties do wrong when they cover up crimes in trusted leaders 
for fear of endangering party supremacy. What shall one s.iy of a church 
which in her leader.s or representatives dares to do the same " for fear of in- 
.iuring the church"? Is not the church the representative of tho right and 
tho divinely decreed enemy of the false? Is not harboring or conniving at 
wrong subver.sivo of tho fundamental and inherent idea and purpose of tho 
church? Away with the nonsense that the good of the church is to be con- 
served by winking at wrong. It means simply that our growing and cum- 
brous ecclesiastical officialism would have received a blow. 

Too much and too highly paid officialism is the source and the aggrava- 
tion of very many ills that afiSict us and menace us with far worse ills to 
come. 

INSUFFICIENT INDOIiSEMENT. 

The Publishing House officials feel very serene and secure under tho in- 
dorsemeiit of the book committee and the general conference. They will 
learn, however, that tho book committee and tho general conference are not 
set for the t-reation of a new code of morals. They have no right, human or 
divine, to set aside the decalogue. An outraged church will be heard. Book 
committees and general conferences can not construe morals for the South- 
ern Methodist Church. We propose still to lean on the Ten Commandments 
for our code. 

Modern Methodist officialism may esteem us very antiquated and old fogy, 
or oven f.-inatical, for clinging to this ancient document, out we will have to 
(mduro their contempt and continue to live by the old Decalogue. We must 
be allowed, too, to insist upon our high officials, whom wc have honored with 
places of trust and responsibility, living by the same code. We protest also 
against their committing us as a church toa breach of this Decalogue. Hence 
wo demand that the $288,000 be refunded to the United States Government. 

The book committee and tho general conference can give high indorse- 
ment, but Sinai has a higher. 

Mv. BATE. Mr. President, I desire to say that if what I hear 
and what I have seen in the newspapers is true — some of the very 
papers referred to by the Senator from IMassachnsetts— this is. an 
outrtige mjon the confidence reposed in the agents of this pub- 
lishing house company by the Senate, and I say to tho Senator 
from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodgk] that I will vote for his resolu- 
tion. 
;m47 



11 

I was one of the Senators who induced the Senate to cast their 
votes in favor of the bill referred to. That was not done by me 
alone, by any means, but nearly every Southern Senator favored 
its passage. Indeed, Mr. President, I believe almost the whole 
church, North and South, and every single bishop, at least so far 
as I can remember, with one or two exceptions, asked that the 
bill be passed by Congress. 

The bill came here from the House, having passed that body. 
A short time before it was called up for consideration in the Sen- 
ate something was said about lobbying upon the oiTtside in order 
to get the bill through. There were such rumors afloat that we 
thought it necessary to probe them to the bottom, so as to know 
whether or not there was any truth in them. The Senator from 
Florida [Mr, Pasco] who had the bill in charge, he being the 
chairman of the subcommittee of the Committee on Claims of the 
Senate, wrote to the men who really had the control of this claim, 
Messrs. Barbee & Smith. 

I am glad nothing is said assailing the church. I did not mean 
to intimate that the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodge] de- 
sired to assail the church, but he cut me off before I got through 
with the remarks I intended to make; but I agree with that Sen- 
ator that if these agents, Barbee & Smith, have violated the con- 
fidence we reposed in them, or have done tliat which is in any 
sense improper touching the distribution of this fund, they should 
be exposed and held strictly to account. 

Mr. HALE. Who are Barbee & Smith? 

Mr. BATE. I will tell you who they are. They are the agents 
of the Publishing House of the Methodist Episcopal Church 
South. They have all the business management which relates, I 
believe, to the distribution of its literature, and everything of 
that kind. They are leading characters, to some extent at least, 
of the Methodist Episcopal Church South. It so happens that I 
live in the same town where this large establishment is located 
and where these gentlemen both live, and it is presumable that I 
ought to know something about this case. I know nothing, hovf- 
ever, except what has occurred before the Senate. I undertook 
to do the best I could in my proper sphere as a Senator, as did 
many other Senators who were here on this floor, and who were 
active friends of this measure, for the good of the church; and, as 
was said by the Senator from Massachusetts, for the poor, super- 
numerary, superannuated, broken-down preachers and theli- fami- 
lies. 

That was the obiective of this fund, as I understood it. I do 
not know whether Barbee & Smith have any legal or moral right 
to dispose of any part of this fund in the Avay which it is 
charged has been*^ done. It may be a "waste of the estate," for 
they seem to occupy the position of trustees, and as such, there- 
fore, I think they have violated their trust when they under- 
take to expend such an amount as this for such a purpose, and 
they ought to be held liable under the law. I think the matter 
ought to be fully investigated by the courts of the country, and 
it mav yet be so investigated. 

Further, I am persuaded, for I know the material of which is 
made the Tennessee Methodist Episcopal Church South Confer- 
ence—I say I believe that the Tennessee Conference, which meets 
this fall, will itself investigate this matter to see that justice is 
done, if possible, to these worn-out preachers, who are, in my 
judgment, entitled to the benefit of this fund. 
;U47 



12 

jMr. HALE. Where does this lobbyist, Stahlman, who is said 
to have got this money, live? 

Mr. BATE. He lives in Nashville. He is a German by birth, 
and I believe came from some states about the time of the civil 
■war. 

Mr. HALE. Is he a lawyer or a member of the bar? 

Mr. BxVTE. I do not kiiow that he is a lawyer. He is a rail- 
voad man and u very smart, bright man, a man who has had much 
experience and great success, 

Mr. HALE. Does the Senator believe that this lobbyist, who 
has looted this great appropriation that Congress gave to this 
religious society, has ever in any way contributed to the passage 
of the bill. Did it not go through entirely outside of him? 

Mr. BATE. I do not know -what he has done except this: He 
was a very active friend of this claim; ho was very active here, 
and, I think, particularly so in the other House, and when the bill 
was in the Senate he was active in doing what he could in its 
favor; but I do not know what effect he ever had. 

Mr. HALE. What could he do? 

Mr. BATE, He could not do anything except to urge its passage. 
He was thoroughly familiar with this whole matter, and when the 
committee met on one or two occasions, he was before it, invited 
there, lirst, by my late colleague. Senator Harris; and when there 
he made a full statement of the history of the claim and an argu- 
ment showing the amount of damages, etc., and I was present 
and heard it. He showed entire familiarity with the subject. 
That much 1 know, but I am going to tell you presently how that 
is. He assured me and a half dozen other Senators on this floor, 
who told me of it at the time, and from whom you will hear in 
this debate, that he was to receive no fee and was doing the serv- 
ice for the good of the church, as he and his wife v/^ere members 
of it, 

Mr. HALE. I wanted to bring that out. 

Mr. BATE. I am coming to that. 

Mr. HALE. This man said he had no fee whatever. 

Mr. BATE. That he had no fee whatever, and furthermore, I 
believed, if the Senator will permit me. that he woiTld get no such 
fee as has been i^aid, or anything like it, or even any fee except 
the moderate one to pay his actual expenses; and I would have 
voted against the bill if I had supposed any such fee, or anything 
like it, as the one he is said to have received would have been 
paid to him or anyone else. 

Mr. SPOONER. I presume I was responsible 

Mr. BATE. I yield to the Senator. 

Mr. SPOONER. I thought the Senator was through. 

Mr. BATE. I am not through, but I yield to the Senator with 
pleasure. 

Mr. SPOONER. Mr. Pre.^ident. I suppose I was responsible for 
the suggestion or report here that there was a very large percentage 
of this claim to be paid to some person for securing the passage of 
the bill through Congress. One evening at the Arlington Hotel 
I was told by a newspaper man whom I had long known and in 
whom I had reason to have confidence tliat such was the fact; 
and I repeated that to the Senator from Indiana [Mr. Fairbanks] 
who is a member of the Committee on Claims, of which I was for 
many years a member, as a reason why the claim ought not to 
pass without, at any rate, a careful scrutiny and investigation of 
that matter, 

2U7 



13 

The Senator from Indiana promptly, as it was his duty to do, 
brought the report to the attention of the Senator from Florida 
having the bill in charge. The report was resented somewhat as 
entirely without foimdation, and elicited a statement from the 
Senator from Florida and others, undoubtedly made in perfect 
good faith and upon sufficient evidence submitted by them to the 
Senate, that there was no triith in the statement. I am quite sur- 
prised to find now that the report seems to be verified. 

Mr. BATE. Mr. President, I prefer going on without further 
interruption, and I shall be as brief as possible about this matter 
since it has been brought up, and I am very glad that it has been 
brought up, so the Methodist Church and the country generally 
can learn the truth of these ugly charges. 

Nothing, Mr. President, has occurred since I have been a mem- 
ber of this Senate which has given me so much chagrin, disap- 
pointment, and mortification as the fact that every representation 
made by myself and other Senators to the effect that no attor- 
ney's fee and no agent's compensation was carried by the bill fo* 
the relief of the Book Agents of the Methodist Episcopal Churcli 
South seems to have turned out dilterently, and that the Senate, 
misled by the assurances of Senators made honestly and in the 
best of faith and upon good grounds, has been induced to appro- 
priate money which has gone to agents and attorneys, when wa 
supposed we were sending relief and support only to " the super- 
anntiated and worn-out preachers, their wives, widows, and 
orphans." 

For myself, Mr, President, I can only say that I relied on the 
positive and unqualified statement of Mr. Stahlman, one of the 
active friends of the measure, and to whom the fee or per cent is 
said to have been paid, that he was giving his aid and services in 
this matter because both his wife and himself were members of 
that church, and lie assured me, as he did several other Senators, 
notably Senator Turley, my colleague, now absent; Senators 
Bacon, Clay, Lindsay, and others, that he was getting no com- 
pensation, fee, or reward for his services; and I also relied on the 
telegram t sent to Barbee & Smith on the 7th of March and answer 
thereto. Further, my reply to the Senator from South Carolina 
[Mr. Tillman] was based on the same grounds. The Senator 
from South Carolina said: 

Before the Senator takes lais seat I should like him to tell us what he knows 
abovit the dispositiou of this money, and whether the attorneys are to get 
any of it. 

Mr. Bate. I will take pleasure in staying that as I heai-d such a rumor 
whispered around yesterday or the day before, I got a dispatch, as also did 
the chairman of the subcommittee of the Committee on Claims, from Barbeo 
& Smith, who are the head of the concern, stating that there was not a word 
of truth in the statement that the fund was to be diverted in any such way. 
A great deal of woi'k has been done about this case, but this is a grand, great 
church, and the country is full of sympathy for it; and men of intelligence 
want to see this church sustained; and they think the claim a proper and 
just one, and that it should be paid. 

Mr. Tillman. Then the money is to go to the church, and not to attorneys? 

Mr. Bate. It is to go to the church, and it is to become a part of the plant, 
if I may so speak, and the proceeds of it are to be given over to these unfor- 
tunate preachers. That is the situation of it. 

Senator Pasco, relying on the same telegraphic assurance, gave 
the Senate to understand that neither fee nor compensation of any 
kind was to be paid out of the proceeds. Senator Morgan, also, 
with the same faith in the personal honor of the gentlemen who 
have been assisting in the passage of this bill, advised the Senate 
that " they would scorn the idea of being here on hii-e for the pur- 
pose of getting a fee or reward out of this charity." 
3147 



14 

Seiiator Clay nncierstooa that "all his (the agent's) expenses 
were paid by the church, and for his services he charged noth- 
ing." Senator Pettus expressed the opinion that in his State no 
respectable lawyer would charge a fee beyond expenses in such 
a case. And Senator Hoar assured the Senate that— 
The member of the House of Representatives from that district- 
Mr. J. "W. Gaines— 
informs me aiuT authorizes mo to say that the gentlemen who have charge 
of tlii.s claim are the Rev. Dr. Barbee, a clergyuuvu of eminent and high and 
pure character, and Mr. Smith, a layman, bat a man also devoted to reli- 
gious work, being superintendent ot a Sunday school and active in its man- 
agement. They are the Book Agents, so called, and they have both person- 
ally informed me that no money has been expended, and there is no extraor- 
dinary debt or obligation for any such service. 

I have quoted the several assurances given in debate at the timo 
of the passage of the bill to emphasize the extent of the deception 
that it seems has been practiced upon the Senate. To be deceived 
and misled by the confidence reposed in the character of these 
Book Agents is extremely mortifying. Tliat mortification is also 
shared by the great church which has been wronged out of so 
large a part of tliis charitable fund. 

1 entertain the hope that some explanation will be forthcoming 
which will relieve Messrs. Barbee & Smith from the responsi- 
bility which now rests upon them for having given the assurances 
they did to the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] and to myself 
that "neither 40 per cent, nor any other fee," was to be paid out 
of this appropriation, to Mr. Stahlman, and that those gentlemen 
have not been the paymasters of the exorbitant fee reported to 
have been paid out of this fund. 

I have known those gentlemen for years and held them in such 
high esteem that their telegram was with me conclusive that 
there was no fee concealed in the bill which would have not re- 
ceived my support after the rumor of a fee became current with- 
out their unqualified assurance. I introduced the bill which has 
resulted in the payment of this amount to said agents for their 
church. 1 never understood the matter in the light of a claim 
that required agents or attorneys, but always regarded it as a bill 
for the relief of a great charity from hardship and devastation 
inflicted during the war, and which was addressed not only to the 
justice of Congress, bitt to its charity. 

I separated this relief from the ordinary claims paid by the War 
Department and put it on the same footing with the bills for re- 
lief of the Kentucky University, the East Tennessee University, 
the University of Alabama, William and Mary College of Virginia, 
and other institutions of like character which came within the 
category, which tended to "make war more humane, generous, 
and liberal," by exempting, as far as possible, from its devastations 
the churches, charities, schools, universities, and libraries, as 
stated so well by the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Hoar]. 

I regret that the amendment of the Senator from Massachusetts 
[Mr. Lodge] providing that no fee greater than $5,000 should be 
paid out of the appropriation was not adopted; but after the full 
and repeated assurances given to Senators, and by them laid be- 
fore the Senate, it seemed unneces.'^ary to take the precaution 
which endangered the passage of the bill through the House of 
Representatives. It was that fear only which induced the Senate 
to lay that amendment on the table; and thatisamatter of regret 
now to every Senator. 
311T 



15 

Mr. President, no one questions the justness of this claim. In- 
deed, I tliink the proof, when properly understood, would justly 
sustain an amount of $450,000; and helieving that the Court of 
Claims, w^here pleadings are made up, proof taken, lawyers em- 
ployed, etc., and where lobbyists do not appear, would do justice 
in the case, I advocated that course, and a bill to that effect was 
introduced in tlie Senate by me and passed, and it was sent to tho 
House. Meanwhile the bill was placed on what is known as the 
"omnibus bill," then in the Senate Committee on Claims. The 
next time it was known to the records of the Senate was when it 
was sent to this body after having passed the House for the amount 
of ,$288,000. 

The whole amount of the §288,000, as I am informed and believe, 
was paid to Bar bee & Smith, the representatives and agents of 
the piiblishing house of the Methodist Episcopal Church South, 
and not to any attorney, and since this ugly criticism has arisen 
they should, in my opinion, promptly and without reserve, ou 
their own motion, show what has become of every dollar of this 
fund, show who got any part of it, for what, and how much. 
They owe it to themselves and to the great church they repre- 
sented in this transaction. 

I will not be a party to shield a wrong if I know it. and neither 
will Senators who favored this bill, but believe in all cases that 
fraud and deceit should be exposed, plucked out by the roots, and 
left to wnther under the search light of truth, "Hew to the line 
and let the chips fall where they may,"' is a good old honest 
motto. I can safely and truthfully say for every Senator who 
cooperated to secure the passage of this bill, "Let the galled jade 
wince, our withers are unwrung."' 

While I knew, as did many others, 'for it was generally known, 
that Mr. Stahlman, among others, was a warm and active friend 
of this bill, I never heard of any contract for any fee in this case, 
and was utterly surprised to hear the rumor to that effect for the 
first time a few days before the passage of the bill. It so sur- 
prised me that, notwithstanding Major" Stahlman's statement to 
me and to other Senators that no fees were to be paid, in order 
to make doubly sure of it I telegraphed to Barbee & Smith, the 
interested parties, in whom I had perfect confidence, and they gave 
the full and complete denial of Stahlman having a fee of 40 i)er 
cent or any other fee in payment of the claim. 

I beg to read that. Let me say right here that when this sprung 
np, I was surprised to hear any such thing, and I wanted to find 
out if there was any truth in it and by what authority I had said 
to the Senate and others had said that it was untrue. I turned to 
look at the communication I sent them. I had not paid any at- 
tention to it. I thought perhaps I did not have it. I could not 
find my telegram. 

Fortunately for me it was a telegram and not a letter. Then I 
resorted to the telegraph office here in the city of Washington for 
the communications, both the one I sent to them on this subject, 
the very day before the passage of the bill on the 7th of March 
last, and the answer thereto. Happily I found them on file in the 
telegraph office, and I will read them. Here is a copy of my dis- 
patch to them: 

Washingtox, March 7, ISOS. 
Barbee & Smith. 

Methodist Publishing Ilouse, KashviUe, Tcnn, 

Mr. PASCO. That is dated the day befoi'e the passage of the bill, 
8i47 



16 

Mr. BATE. The day before the passage of the bill; about the 
same (bite that you got your dispatch. 
My dispatch to them says: 

Tolejrrav^h to-day answer to Senator Pasco's letter to you Saturday as to 
Btahhiian having fee of 40 iier cent or any other fee in case of payment of 
votir claim. I would like to hear from you al^;o. In my judgment, if true. 
It will endanger the bill. 

WM. B. BATE. 

Here is the answer which they sent to that very positive tele- 
gram, addressed to me on the same day of March, including not 
only the 40 per cent, but "'any other fee:" 

Nashville, Te:;x., March 7, 1S03. 
Hon. W. B. Bate: 

We wired Senator Pasco early this a. m. as follows: "The statement ia 
imtrue, and you are therefore authorized to deny it." 

BARBEE & SMITH. 

Feeling assured of its truth, 1 felt f ull^' authorized to say to the 
Senate, as I did, that there was no truth in the rumor, and that 
the fund would be used as a part of the publishing house plant, 
and the net income go to aid the supernumeraries, superannuated 
poor preachers, and their families, and, Mr. President, I believe 
this fund belongs to them now, and the church ought to see that 
it is put to that use, and I have such faith in the honesty and love 
of justice of that great church tliat I believe it will see it done. 
In my opinion it ought to do that or return every dollar of it to 
the Government. That grand, noble, and useful church, free 
Irom stain and scandal, can not rest under any charge, or even 
intimation, of receiving money under false pretenses, or for one 
pui'pose and appropriate it to another, no more than it can retain 
money obtained by falsehood, fraud, and deceit. 

I personally know the Rev. Mr. B.arbee— knowhimtobe a lead- 
ing and influential minister of the gospel of the Methodist per- 
suasion. He formerly occupied McKendree Church, perhaps the 
largest, richest, and most influential Methodist Church in the 
State; was universally respected, and. as I understood, v/as chosen 
to take charge of that large publishing house establishment be- 
cause of his integrity and strong points of character. 1 know 
Mr, Smith by reputation most favorably. I know that both of 
them v/ere held in the very highest esteem by the best people 
where the}' and I live, that is, in the city of Nashville. 

1 could not believe that either of those gentlemen woiild pur- 
posely, under any circumstances, mislead me or any member of 
this Senate. With that kind of faith and conviction, on hearing 
the rumor that a large per cent of the claim, if recovered, would 
go to Stahlman, I telegraphed these gentlemen, Barbee & Smith, 
with the view of getting the facts in regard to said rumor, in 
order to satisfy myself, and to i)rescnt them, if necessary, to my 
fellow-Senators. 

Now, by way of putting Senators, myself among them, who 
cooperated in getting the bill passed, in the true and proper light, 
I have read these telegrams. The originals of which these are 
copies are now on file in the ofTice of tlie Western Union Tele- 
graph Company in this city. I have only gotten them in the last 
tew days, since the recent scandal 8i)rung up about the large fea 
paid to Stahlman, that they might aid in a vindication and com- 
plete justification of our cour.se in passing the bill. Even a doubt- 
ing Thomas would have believed these teh^grams under the cir- 
cumstances—and one who Avould not should cast the first stone. 

Therefore we were perfectly justified in giving that vote. I 



17 

was justified in believing that there was no fee to be paid to any- 
one, perhaps the expenses, but nothing more. The Senate be- 
lieved that, from what I said and from what the Senator from 
Florida [Mr, Pasco] said, and from what the Senator from Georgia 
[Mr. Clay] said, and from what the Senator from Alabama [Mr. 
Morgan] and several other Senators said, there was no truth in 
the rumor referred to. I felt grateful to have that confidence 
reposed in me. But you see we are disappointed in it. 

If it is true— I do not know whether or not it is, but I believe 
it is, from what the Senator from Massachusetts says— that a part 
of this fund has been malappropriated, as much as §100,000 of it, 
I tliink it is the duty of these men to expose it and show where it 
went, to whom, and for what. If they fail to do so, then let the 
committee which is asked for here or some other committee in- 
vestigate it and let the courts look into it and see that these poor, 
unfortunate ministers for whom this fund was set apart have 
their rights in this matter. 

I believe that these agents, Barbee & Smith, occupy the position 
of trustees in this fund, and there may be a charge of " wasting 
the estate." It is a trust fund and I am not sure but that a court 
would put in its generous and equitable hand to relieve them. I 
want the matter exposed. Let us go to the bottom. As I said, 
" Hew to the line and let the chips fall where they may." 

Mr. PASCO. Mr. President, I have been for some time hearing- 
rumors about this Chamber and in the city with reference to the 
application of a part of this fund which was voted to the Methodist 
Book Agents. I have seen some statements in the newspapers 
charging that apart of it has been misapplied. When such reports 
first reached me, I could not credit them; it seemed impossible 
that they could be true. The evidence, however, has accumu- 
lated and is constantly accumitlating, and recently I have been 
furnished — by the publishers, I presume— with a copy of a paper 
called Zion's Outlook. It is, perhaps, the same paper which has 
been made use of by the Senator from Massachusetts in introduc- 
ing the resolution. It is published at Nashville. Tenn. I under- 
stand, upon inquiry, that the editor of it, B. F. Haines, is a well- 
known Methodist minister there, a man of high character and 
standing, and he is thoroughly impressed with the truth of these 
statements; and I fear they are true. If so, then out of the §288,- 
000 which was voted for the use of the Methodist Church by our 
bill $100,800 went to a claim agent who was hero representing them 
in endeavoring to secure the passage of the bill. We were assured 
while the bill was pending that there was no such contract exist- 
ing as authorized the payment of a large aniount of money to a 
claim agent. That statement was made through me. It came 
from the Book Agents themselves, and as 1 was the medium of 
this commiinication, it is proper that I should say something in 
reference to the matter now that it has been brouglit up by the 
Senator from Massachusetts. 

(Jertainly, if there is anything misleading or erroneotis in the 
telegram which I read to tlie Senate on the 8th of March, it was 
not suspected at the time by the Senator from Tennessee, who 
also communicated with Messrs. Barbee & Smith with reference 
to this matter, or by myself, and. after we had stated the source of 
our information to the Senate, I know there is not a Senator upon 
the floor who believed that any such contract as we had inquired 
about existed. The Senator from Massachusetts jMr. Lodge], 
suspecting strongly that there was such a contract, ofiered an 



18 

amendment that only $5,000 of tlie fund should be paid to any 
claiui agent or attorney. I opposed tlie amendment and I fur- 
nished evidence to the Senate to show why it was unnecessary. 
But it will be remembered that the purpose of the amendment 
was not to defeat the bill. It was simply to protect the benefi- 
ciaries of the trust. So far as the Government is concerned, no 
in.iur\' or wrong or damage has been done. This claim has been 
before the two Houses of Congress for more than a quarter of a 
century. Many favorable reporls upon the bills providing for its 
payment have been made in the House of Representatives, and 
although the reports in the Senate have been less frequent and 
less numerous, whenever the claim has been reported upon by a 
committee having it in charge here, the maiorityof the committee 
have always rendered a favorable report. More than twenty years 
ago the distmguished Senator from Alabama [Mr. Morgan] now in 
his seat made a very able and exhaustive report upon this subject, 
and that report has been the basis for all subsequent reports which 
have been made in the House of Representatives. In later years 
it was not practicable to get the claim through the Senate com- 
mittee, but there was never an adverse majority report made upon 
it by the Committee on Claims, and during the last two or three 
years several favorable reports have been made upon it. 

The members of the two Houses of Congress generally under- 
stood the merits of this claim. It was pretty well known through- 
out the country. The facts generally have been stated in the 
newspapers, and it was understood that the claim against the 
Government had a solid basis upon w^iich to rest; and we all know 
the reasons which prevented earlier action upon the bill that 
would give this money to the Methodist Church. But during the 
present Congress the time seemed to be ripe for pressing it. It 
was taken up in the House of Representatives, debated there, the 
facts wei'e all carefully presented, and when it came to a final vote 
more than two-thirds voted in favor of the passage of the bill. 

It came over here. It went to the Committee on Claims. A 
favorable report was made by the committee, and later we had 
an opportunity to call it up for consideration, and in the debate 
which followed my recollection is that but a single Senator op- 
posed the passage of the bill. The justice of the claim was gen- 
erally recognized, and those who believed that there was no 
strictly legal claim upon the Government for the amount felt 
there were merits in it and good reasons why the amount should 
be allowed, and they joined with us in securing the passage of 
the bill. 

As the Senator from Tennessee has already stated, a very much 
larger amount was claimed by the church. In their petition they 
asked for $458,400, and I think every Senator who has ever exam- 
ined the claim on its merits, in committee or upon the floor of the 
Senate, has been satisfied that if any amount should be paid, a 
larger sum than that named in the bill could properly have 
been allowed to the claimants. So the Government has suffered 
no loss or damage or injury by the failure to put this amendment 
upon the bill. The damage has been done to the beneficiaries of 
the trust. The people of the United States have not been injured, 
and there is no special reason why the Senate should enter into an 
exammation of the subject, because the Government has not suf- 
fered and we are not injured and those we are called upon to pro- 
tect are not the sufferers. The sufferers are the beneficiaries of 
this trust. 
3147 



19 

Mr. TILLMAN. Will the Senator from Florida allow me for 
a moment? 

Mr. PASCO. Certainly. 

Mr. TILLMAN. Does not the Senator from Florida think that 
the whole Senate is injured in the estimation of the public by hav- 
ing a lot of thieves come here and lie us out of money in this way? 

Mr. PASCO. I do not think the Senator from South Carolina 
and I differ very much in condemning such action. 

Mr. TILLMAN. This is the first claim of that nature coming 
up from that section of the country which has been considered by 
the Senate and passed on favorably. There are just claims pend- 
ing, possibly: I know nothing about them, but I know that after 
such an exhibition of greed and indecency it will be very difficult 
for any of ns to trust anybody hereafter. 

Mr. PASCO. I feel sure there will be a proper spirit of discrim- 
ination in the minds of Senators when other claims come up here 
to jiidge them upon their merits. It may be necessary for us to 
put some clause in these bills to protect claimants against their 
agents, if we have good cause to think that they are in danger of 
unfair treatment; but we did not believe that such action was 
necessary in the present case, and 1 wish to give the reasons why 
I entertained that view. I heard the report which was circulated 
about the Senate Chamber last February or March — I am not sure 
but that the Senator from Indiana [Mr. Fairbanks] was the first 
to call mv attention to it 

Mr. FAIRBANKS. If fhe Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] 
will allow me, I will state that the suggestion came to me through 
the honorable Senator from Wisconsin [Mr. Sfooner]; that he 
had heard that there was a contingent fee of greater or less amount 
involved in the claim. I then immediately communicated the 
fact to the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] who was in charge 
of the bill, and said to him that if that was true, I should oppose 
the claim; that I would not consent, so far as I was concerned, to 
its payment if any portion of it was to be paid to any claim agent. 
I was assured by him and by the Senator from Tennessee [Mr. 
Bate] most positively that the rumor was absolutely without 
foimdation and that the entire claim would go to the church. 

Mr. BATE. I wish to state that that is correct. I had an in- 
terview with the Senator from Indiana, who was opposed to the 
claim and that was the ground of his opposition: and I told him 
that there was certainly no truth in that. I told him about this 
dispatch to me. 

Mr. TILLMAN. If the Senator from Florida Avill permit me, 
he has a letter which he wrote to these gentlemen. I should be 
glad if he would have it read, so that we may know just what 
the basis of the deceit was; how much of a lie they did tell. 

Mr. PASCO. The Senate is entitled to hear all I know about 
the subject, and I propose to give this letter and such informa- 
tion as I have relating to these charges in the progress of my re- 
marks. When the bill w-as up for discussion, I did not read the 
letter, because it was not then at hand, but I stated its contents. 
The Senate is entitled, and the country is entitled, to whatever 
facts are in my jDossession; and now that the Senator from Mas- 
sachusetts has brought the matter up, I propose to give them as 
fnlly and freely as the Senate or any individual Senator desires 
to have them. 

Mr. President, I am correct in my recollection that the Senator 
from Indiana first called the matter to my attention. I heard it 

3417 



20 

with a good deal of feeling. I felt, whether or liot I manifested 
it to him, some indignation that there slionld be such a report. I 
did not think it was possible, and I did not hesitate to inform him 
and other Senators who spoke to me about it that I was satisfied 
tliat the rumor was false. I felt as they did— that I could not 
support the bill if a large portion of the amount to be appropri- 
ated was to bo paid to an agent or attorney. 

The rumor circulated throughout the Senate Chamber and 
among Senators, and a number came to me for information iipou 
the subject, knowing the bill was in my hands and under mj^ di- 
rection as the subcommittee of the Committee on Claims; and 
when called upon, I took upon myself the responsibility of saying 
that it was false. I took the ground, in the first place, that the 
Book Agents had not the aiithority to make an such bargain. The 
amount I heard about the Chamber was 40 per cent. Whether it 
was ;J0 or 35 or 40 per cent is immaterial. Any such ratio of com- 
pensation was excessive, and I took the ground that the Book 
Agents had no power as trustees to make any wasteful contract 
with a claim agent for the recovery of this fund. 

In addition to that, although I do not know the Book Agents 
personally, I knew from their reputation, that they were gentle- 
men of the highest personal character and good business men, and 
I felt sure that they would not make an improvident contract, 
and I felt sui-e that they knew it was impossible that so large an 
amount as this could be legitimately used in the prosecution of 
any claim before the two Houses of Congress. 

I wish to give from the record the authority which these Book 
Agents have. I Avill not read it all, biit I will have it all put into 
the Record. I take it from the report which I made during the 
Fifty-fourth Congress; but these matters of record were person- 
ally compared by me with the original books from which they 
were taken. I had some of them sent to me from Nashville. The 
first document I wish to put in the Record is a resolution adopted 
at the session of the General Conference of the Methodist Episco- 
pal Church South, held in Columbus. Ga., May, 1854. That was 
the time when the plan of a publishing house was originated. 
The resolution is as follows: 

L'esolvrd, That the committeo on books and periodicals Ijc, and they are 
herehy, instructed to report a judicious system for tlie early commenceinent 
and ultimate establishment of a book concern proper of the Methodist Epis- 
copal Church South. 

0) The Book Concern sball consist of a publishing house at . 

The name and i^lace had not then been determined. 

(3) Of a manufacturing establishment of books in connection with said 
liouse. 

(:j) Of an agent or agents to whom shall bo committed, under the advice 
and approbation of .t Ijook committee appointed by the K-etieral conference, 
the control of tlie funds of the church known as the book fund, and the con- 
duct of the business for the next four years. 

(4) The agent or agents shall be required by law to provide, by and with 
the advice and approhationof said committee in buildings and other fix tiares 
and materials, for publishing and mauufacturingall the books, etc., necessary 
to meet the demands of the Southern peojjlo on strictly business principles— 
that is (1), such books as from tl:e accidence of their publication can bo pub- 
lished as cheaply in the city of their location as elsewhere the agents shall 
manufacture at their own estaljlishmont; C') such books as from the acci- 
dence of their publication can bo i)ul)lishcd cheaper at some other manufac- 
tory of the country shall be published by contract at such manufactory. 

Ponding the discussion of these resolutions, the hour of adjournment wa.s 
poBtj)oned, and, after their adoption, conference adjourned with the beno- 
aiction of the bishop. 

Later, in February, 18G0, the State of Tennessee incorporatecl 

3147 



21 

the puLlisliiug house, aiul I have the .act of hacorpc ration here. 
It is as follows: 

[Laws of Tennessee, 1855-56. Chapter 136, page 196. ;i 

An act to incorjioratc the Agents of the Publishing House of the Methodist 
Episcopal Church South, in the city ot Nashville. 

SEr'TioNl. Be it enacted hi/ the general nsscmbiy of the State of Tennessee, 
That Edward Stephenson and Francis A. Owen, and their successors in office, 
be, and they are hereby, made a body corporate and politic, under the name 
and stylo of the "Book Agents of the Methodist Episcopal Church South,"' 
and by that name and style to have perpetual succession, for the manufac- 
ture and distribution of books, tracts, periodicals, etc.; to make wid use a 
common seal, and the same to alter at pleasure; in this name to sue and be 
sued, contract and be contracted with, hold personal and real estate, by pur- 
chase, deed, grant, gift, devise, oi bequest, and the same to sell or dispose of 
as they may deem best for the interests involved. 

Sec. 'i. Be it enacted. That the corporation hereby created shall now, and 
at all times hereafter, be under the cnntrol of the said Methodist Episcopal 
Church South, according to the laws and usages of the same, as contained in 
the present or in any fixture edition of their discipline. 
Passed February ^'6, IS-jil. 

NEIL S. BROWN, 
Spi'okcf of the House of Represenf (dices. 
EDWARD S. CHEATHAM, 

Speaker of the Senate. 

Now, I take from their discipline the laws and iisagcs relating 
to this matter: 

Section VIII. — Of printincj ami circulaiincj hooka and periodicals, and of tlie 
Xjrofd arisinij therefrom. 
Ahticle 1. There .shall bo a book establishment at the city of Nashville, 
Tenn., for the purpose of manufacturing and ]nibii<hing books, to be called 
the Publishing House of the Methodist Epii^cop;!,! ( 'linr.h South, and be under 
the control of two agents and a committee, to l)o called the book committee. 

(2) The object of this institution shall be to advance the cause of Protest- 
ant Christianity, by disseminating religious knowledge and useful literary 
and scientific information in the form of cheaj) books, tracts, and periodicals. 

(3) The agents shall receive all the funds of the church, known as the book 
fund, and be responsible to the general conference for the prudent aiiplica- 
tion and safe management of the same, under the general direction of the 
conference. They shall m,akc an annual exhibit to the several annual co:i- 
ferences, and a full and detailed account of the .state and progress of the 
business to the general conference. 

(4) The agents are authorized to invest, of these funds, from time to time, 
as the business may require, in .grounds, houses, and fixtures, a sum not ex- 
ceeding, in the next four years, |75,(M). The joint concurrence, however, of 
the college of bishojjs formally .given, after a free and full consultation and 
conference with the agents and book committee, may authorize a further 
investment. 

(5) The agents shall proceed to immediately supply, as far as practicable, 
the demand of the church for books, tracts, and j)eriodicals, availing them- 
selves of all the facilities of other establishments tor their publication at tho 
cheapest rates; and in all investments for tlio manufacturing of books, and 
in the manufacture of books, they are required to govern themselves sti'ictly 
by the principles of economy, in view of the ultimate permanent establish- 
ment of tho publishing house. 

(6) The books shall be sold at a price suiiicient to cover prime cost, rates 
of discount to wholesale jnirchasers. the allowances of our bishops, and a 
reasonable advance to sustain the business of the iustitiition, without hazard 
of lo.ss or material increase of profit. 

(7) There shall be a committee of five, three of Vi'hom shall be resident at 
Nashville, to bo called tho book committee. No permanent investment of 
the book fund shall be made by the agents without their approbation. They 
shall give advice to the agents on all matters of general interest, whenever 
consulted. They shall fix tho allowances of the agents and resident editors, 
fill vacancies in their own board, and, with the advice of tiie bishops, fill 
vacancies in the agency and in the corps of resident editors. * * * 

It appears from the second section of this act of incorporation 
that whatever authority these agents had was to be under the 
control of the Methodist Episcopal Church South, according to 
its laws and usages as contained in the church discipline, and 
under article 3, section 8, of the discipline, which has been read. 
3-14; 



their manageinent of the book fund was to be undor the general 
du'ectiou of the conference. My understanding of their action in 
the collection of this claim is that this amoimt of $10(),iS00 was 
paid over swiftly to their attorney before the meeting of the con- 
ference. If so, it was paid without the approval of the general 
authority that was to give them direction according to the laws 
of the church. 
Further, the discipline of the church provides: 

That the profits of the pnhlishing hotise should be appropriated to no 
othor purpose tliau for the benefit of the traveUng, supernumerary, supcr- 
auuuated, and worn out preachers, and their wives, widows and children. 

My information is (I think it was elicited in the debate on this 
bill, biit I have not been able to put my hand upon it) that di- 
rectly after the clo.se of the war some three or four hundred 
thousand dollars of bonds were issued in order to build up the 
corpus of the fund. The Book Agents had lost a large part of 
their plant during the war, and for the want of this money that 
they claimed was due them from the Government, the publishing 
house corporation was compelled to borrow three or four hundred 
thousand dollars upon this issue of bonds. 

My understanding was that when this $288,000 was paid back to 
the church it would relieve them of their indebtedness and build 
up again the corpus of the fund. So that the whole $288,000 be- 
longed to the fund itself, and the body of the fund could not prop- 
erly be used for any other purpose than the church purposes. 

Now, then, if $100,800 of the corpus of the fund has been taken 
away from it, then the earnings of that amount have been taken 
away from the beneficiaries who are entitled under the discipline 
of the church to the profits of the publishing house; the fund is 
wasted to that extent by the payment of the $100,800 for other 
than church or publishing house purposes; and the legitimate earn- 
ings of that amount, perhaps $5,000 or $G, 000 a year, are taken away 
from these "traveling, supernumerary, superannuated, and worn- 
out preachers, their wives, widows, and children," for all time as 
long as this fund shall exist. 

Mr. President, those were the reasons, as I have said, why I 
thought it was improper and impossible that any such contract 
could have been made. It would have been a waste of the fund, 
and 1 believed that the business capacity of these two gentlemen 
was so great that it would be impossible for them to make such a 
contract. 

I was indignant when I heard the report. I felt satisfied that it 
would work to the detriment of the bill. I believed it would de- 
feat the bill if it was understood that a large part of the appro- 
priation was to be for other than church purposes. I knew that, 
so far as I was concerned, I would not vote for the bill if it was 
understood that $100,000 or more of the amount was to go to a 
claim agent. 1 thought that if the United States was to pay this 
money to the church to recompense the church for the losses it 
sustained, it should be retained for its legitimate use accord- 
ing to the trust, and I knew of no possible way in which 
$100,000 could be earned legitimately in assisting to carry the bill 
through the two Houses. 

The Senator from Tennessee has stated that this gentleman was 
present at one of the meetings of the committee. I understood 
that he was. I was not present at that committee meeting my- 
self, but I understand that he fully j^resentcd the case to them. 
But my understanding also of that matter, not derived from him, 
SU7 



23 

for I had very little comnuiiiicatiou at any time with him, was 
that he was working in this cause because he and his wife were 
members of the church, and that he had offered his services to 
assist in the collection of the claim because of his desire to aid 
and benefit the church to which they belonged. 

Now, Mr. President, after I had heard the reports which were 
in circulation before the passage of the bill, although I did not be- 
lieve them, I thought it was proper that the trustees, the Book 
Agents, should know of their existence, and out of abundant cau- 
tion I prepared to meet them when the bill came up for discussion 
during the following week, for I expected it would then come be- 
fore the Senate, as it did. I felt sure they could and would deny 
these reports, and thought it would be well to have in my hands 
a complete statement from the Book Agents themselves as to these 
charges. So I wrote, on March 5, 1898, to Barbee & Smith, as 
follows: 

March 5, 1898. 
Messrs. Barbee & Smith, XashviUe, Tcnn. 

Dear Sirs: Some malicious persons are circulating a slanderous story 
about the Capitol, with the evident purpose to obstruct the passage of our 
bill. It is to the effect that you have made a contract with Mr. Stahlman to 
pay him 40 per cent of the amount recovered. 

It was not necessary for me to get any contradiction, because I knew very 
well that the agents of the publishing house knew better how to conduct 
their trust than to make such an improvident bargain, and I knew also that 
there was no power to make such a contract, so I did not hesitate to de- 
nounce it as a malicious slander; and I am sure also that the Senators who 
came to me for information iipon the sub.iect are thoroughly satisfied with 
my statement. But as a matter of caution it will be very well for me to have 
a ])ositive denial from you which I can use if it appears necessary cither be- 
fore the bill comes up for action or on the floor of the Senate, so I suggest 
that you send me a telegram on Monday as to the facts of the case and au- 
thorizing me, as I am sure you can, to deny this statement. 

Mr. BATE. What is the date of that letter? 

Mr. PASCO. The letter was dated the 5th of March. The 
bill was passed on the 8th. I knew there would be abundant 
time for the letter to reach Nashville and to get a full and com- 
plete reply before it came up for consideration. 

In the first place, I got the telegram, which I shall read. My 
secretary found it only yesterday evening. I had lost sight of its 
existence until then. I only used the second one Avhen the mat- 
ter was before the Senate in March, but this is the first one I 
received. 

[Telegram.! 

Nashville, Tenx., March r, tsos. 
Hon. S. Pasco, Senator: 

Have asked Mr. Stahlman to call at once to see you. He is a gentleman 
upon whose statements you may im])licitly rely. Ho is our friend and neigh- 
bor and official member of our church, whose'interest in our behalf reaches 
beyond and above pecuniary considerations. 

BAKBEE & SMITH, Book Agents. 

I first received that in response to my letter of March 5. Though 
I am not positive about all the incidents, my recollection is that I 
took this telegram and showed it to the Senator from Tennessee 
[Mr. Bate] and told him that it did not meet my inquiry. My 
recollection is that that was the cause of his sending the telegram 
which he has already read. But I am not sure about that. At all 
events, another relegram was sent to them, and subsequently I 
received the one which has been already read, dated March 7, 1898. 

Mr. KYLE. Will the Senator from Florida indulge me a mo- 
ment? What was the second telegram? I was out of the Cham- 
ber. 

34 ir 



24 

Mr. PASCO. This is the second one. The letter of the 5th 
had been received by Barbee & Smith, and the.y replied as follows: 
•'Letter of 5th received. The statement is untrue, and you are 
hereby authorized to deny it." 

These telegrams came in response to the letter of March 5, and 
it was this second telegram that 1 presented to the Senate when 
the matter was up for discussion on the 8th of that month. 

Mr. KYLE. Does the Senator mean to state that after that 
telegram was received and the f imd was appropriated by Congress 
$100,000 of it did go to this party? 

Mr. PASCO. That was charged by the Senator from Massa- 
chusetts. He desires to have an investigation. The circum- 
stances and statements that have reached me seem to indicate 
that it is so. As I said in the beginning of my remarks, a paper 
called the Zion's Outlook, published by the Methodist Church at 
Nashville, edited by the Rev. B. F. Haines, charges that that is so, 
and it does not seem to be denied by the Book Agents or their 
agent. 

Mr. KYLE. I merely want to state that I voted for that appro- 
priation with the distinct understanding that it was to go entirely 
to the church. I think that was the opinion of a great many 
others in this immediate part of the Chamber. 

Mr. PASCO. I presume that every member of the Senate who 
heard that dispatch read (and it was read, for I have the Record 
here before me) believed it as I did, not merely from my state- 
ment, not because I read it, but believed it because it emanated 
from this very high authority. Dr. Barbee is an eminent minis- 
ter of the Methodist Church and Mr. Smith is an eminent member 
of it, a trustee, along Avith Mr. Barbee, in managing this great and 
important business. It satisfied me entirely, as it did nearly every 
member of the Senate. 

I would as soon have doubted the authenticity of the Scriptures 
as to have doubted the veracity of the statements of those gentle- 
men. The idea that it was untruthful or evasive, or that it con- 
tained anything short of actual truth, never entered my mind. I 
communicated it to the Senate in that spirit. I feel that I had 
used all due diligence and taken all proper precautions in prepar- 
ing to make a full and correct statement to the Senate with refer- 
ence to these rumors. The responsibility was upon me and I feel 
that 1 did all that anyone could have done to put the Senate in 
13ossession of all the facts. 

But, as I said before, the injury has been done, not to the peo- 
ple of the United States, but to the beneficiaries of this trust. I 
regi'et very much that they were not protected by some amend- 
ment, but I should not have supported the amendment of the 
Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodge] under any circum- 
stances. 1 thought it ought to be voted down. In the hrst place, 
I thought the amount was excessive. The Senator from Massa- 
chusetts provided in his amendment that §5,000 be paid to claim 
agents. 1 did not think that so large an amount as that should be 
allowed. Of course, I knew that some expense had been incurred 
and that persons who had interested themselves in this case were 
not all wovkmg in the spirit in which Messrs. Barbee & Smith 
said that Mr. Stahlman was, "beyond and above pecuniary con- 
siderations." I supposed that a few hundred, perhaps a few thou- 
sand dollars might be or might have been expended in preparing 
their case in different ways; but if any small and reasonable sum 
3117 



of that kind had been expended, I presumed it would be paid out 
of the general fund of the church and that it need not break into 
this fund at all, or if so, to only a small extent, and I should not 
have been willing to vote as large a sum as §5,000 as compensa- 
tion to attorneys. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The hour of 2 o'clock has arrived. 
The Chair is obliged to lay before the Senate the unfinished busi- 
ness, which is the bill (H. R. 493G) for the allowance of certain 
claims for stores and supplies reported by the Court of Claims 
under the provisions of the act approved Mai-ch 3, 1883, and com- 
monly known as the Bowman Act, and for other purposes. 

Mr, Wilson. I trust that the unfinished business may be tem- 
porarily laid aside until the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] 
concludes his speech. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Is there any objection to the request? 
The Chair hears none, and the Senator from Florida will proceed. 

Mr. PASCO. I am nearly through, Mr. President, but I thank 
the Senator from Washington. In the first place, the amount of 
compensation proposed by the Senator from Massachusetts Avas 
excessive. But worse than that, I feai'ed there might be delay in 
the matter which would be injurious to the interests of the church 
and perhaiJS prejudicial to the bill, causing delay and perhaps 
imperil the final passage of the bill. There were others who 
shared that fear; the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Hoar] 
was among them. It was for these reasons that I opposed the 
amendment offered by the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. 
Lodge]. I regarded the amount as excessive and 1 thought that 
the delay was unfortunate. I thought, too, as I said in the first 
place, that this provision was wholly unnecessary, becaitse the 
Book Agents had no power to pay this large sum out of the 
amount they were about to recover, and that their business capac- 
ity and business experience would teach them that it should not 
be taken from the fund. 

Mr. President, I think that this covers the entire"ground,so far 
as I am concerned. I have felt that the Senate was entitled to 
such information as I had upon the subject, and I desired to 
cover the different points. 

Mr. WILSON. May I interrupt the Senator from Florida just 
one minute? Do I understand him to say that it is common re- 
port and belief that a large sum, namely, $100,000, has been paid 
for attorneys' fees in this case? 

Mr. CHANDLER. It is not common report; it is admitted. 

Mr. WILSON. Then if it is, all that remains to be said is that 
it is a most disgraceful, outrageous, and infamous transaction on 
the part of those people. 

Mr. CHANDLER. There is much more to be said about it. 

Mr. PASCO. I want to remind the Senator from Washington 
again that it is not the people of the United States who have been 
injured in this action. It is the beneficiaries of this chur';h. 

I shall not oppose the motion of the Senator from Massachu- 
setts to have the investigation if it is deemed proper that it should 
be had, but my judgment is that the investigation ought to be by 
the party who is interested in the matter. The investigation 
should be held by the Methodist Episcopal Church South, and its 
college of bishops can inaugurate such an investigation and bring 
out all of the facts in the case. 

Mr. WILSON. May I interrupt the Senator right there? I do 
not care to enter into this debate at all. As I understand the 

3447 



26 

Senator, he wants the Methodist Church South to investigate this 
matter. It seems from what I have listened to and what they 
place on the record here, through the Senator, from the Methodist 
Church South there was no truth in this matter at all; and yet 
there seems to have been a contract for 85 per cent of it, which 
must have been known to the Methodist Church South, which per- 
mitted this thing to drag its slimy way through here and never 
gave any notice of it when the question was raised in the Senate. 

Mr. PASCO. The Senator from Washington must recollect that 
the two book agents are not the Methodist Church anymore than 
he and I are the United States. 

Mr. TELLER. This matter has gone over now, and I call for 
tl'.e regular order. 

Mr. PASCO. I will be through in one moment. They are sim- 
ply two officers of the church as he and I are two Senators, and I 
believe that the church will investigate the matter and should 
investigate it. 

Mr. FRYE. Will they return the money? That is what they 
ought to do. 

Mr. PASCO. The Senator from Maine asks whether they will 
return the money. Mr. President, the money does not belong to 
the United States. The money belongs to the beneficiaries. It is 
not the United States that has been injured. It is the benefici- 
aries of this trust that have been injured. 

Mr. BURROWS. But the Senator will allow me to say, if it 
should turn out upon investigation that the bill was passed under 
a misrepresentation, it has already been stated that the Methodist 
Church would promptly refiand to the United States that portion 
which was paid over to them; that they would not receive any 
portion of a fund which was secured by misrepresentation in the 
American Congress. 

Mr. PASCO. It is no part of my purpose in addressing the 
Senate at the jn-esent time to suggest what is the duty of the Meth- 
odist Church. I draw a very wide distinction between tho 
Methodist Church and these two book agents and the attorney 
they employed in this matter. My judgment is that the Metho- 
dist Church, through its proper officials, when all of the facts are 
presented to them through their regular channels of information, 
will know exactly what their diity is in the matter, and will do 
and perform it, and it is no part of my purpose now to make any 
suggestions to them as to what they should do. 

Mr. BURROWS. Of course they would return the fund. They 
■would of course return it. 

Mr. BATE. Will the Senator from Florida alloAv me? 

Mr. TELLER, I must insist that tlio regular order shall be 
taken up. 

Mr. BATE. Mr. President 

Mr. PASCO. I hope the Senator from Colorado will not cut mo 
off. 

Mr. BATE. I am not going to make a speech. I merely want 
to put myself right. 

Mr. TELLER. Certainly; but I shall object to anybody else 
speaking. 

Mr. BATE. The Senator from Michigan is, I think, mistaken 
In what I said there, and he will find the Reporters will so make 
it. I said the church ought, in my opinion, to do it, and I be- 
lieved it would do it, not that it was obligated to do it. 

Mr. BURROWS. Undoubtedly it will. 

3117 



27 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Senator from Florida has the 
floor. 

Mr. PASCO. I was about to close what I had to say. As I 
have said, the beneficiaries of this fund are the injured parties. 
There is no doubt but that the bill would have passed that after- 
noon. But if it had been believed that a part of the fund was 
likely to be misapplied, there would have been an addition to it in 
the shape of an amendment prohibiting the payment of a single 
dollar to any attorney or claim agent. But the bill would have 
passed, and the Senate would have taken the precaution to pro- 
tect the fund from the extravagant claim of any agent. But 
whether it should be returned to the Government or not is a mat- 
ter that can be determined hereafter, and I express no opinion 
upon that point. 

I shall throw no obstrnctions whatever in the way of the pro- 
posed investigation, and if it is the will of the Senate that the 
matter be referred to a committee for a full and thorough investi- 
gation, all that I have had at my disposal, documents, papers, 
and telegrams, will be at the service of the committee, and I will 
willingly aid in eliciting the truth. 

Mr. TELLER. I call for the regular order now. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The regular order is called for. 

Mr. BACON. Mr. President 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from Georgia desire 
to be heard on the bill before the Senate? 

Mr. BACON. I simply desire to say before the regular order is 
taken up that the failure on the part of some of us to be heard at 
this time might be misunderstood. I wish merely to add that 
there are several of us in the Senate who were active in the pro- 
curement of this claim who at the proper time will be heard in 
furtherance of the suggestions which have been made. 

Mr. TELLER. I will simply say to the Senator that the reso- 
lution will be up to-morrow morning, and if the Senator desires 
he can be heard then. I myself want to be heard on it. 

Mr. BACON. But I do not desire that it should pass away at 
this time with apparent silence on our part voluntarily had. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The resolution goes over. 



Fridcuj, June 10, 1S9S. 

Mr. CLAY. Will the Senator from North Carolina yield to me 
for a few moments? 

Mr. BUTLER. Certainly. 

Mr. CLAY. Mr. President, during the present session of Con- 
gress there was appropriated $280,000 to pay a claim for damages 
sustained by the Southern Methodist Publishing House Company, 
owned and controlled by the Methodist Episcopal Church South. 
This bill came from the Committee on Claims, of which I am a 
member, and I gave it my support, both in the committee room 
and on the floor of the Senate. That this was a just claim I 
thought then, and have not changed my opinion. I gave the 
claim a most careful and searching investigation, and the evi- 
dence satisfied me beyond a doubt that the claimants had been 
damaged by the Government more than we gave them, and that 
the Government, both in equity and law, was liable for the injury 
and destruction of claimants' i:)roperty. 

Under the evidence the claim received every vote present except 
3147 



28 

one Senatoi*. The claim arose on account of the late civil war 
between the States. 

The Methodist Episcopal Church South had invested $700,000 in 
a publishing- house in the city of Nashville, Tenn., used to pi'int 
and distribute religious books and literature. among the people. 
This magnificent plant was seized bj- the Federal Government after' 
Nashville had surrendered to the Federal authorities and was used 
by the Federal Army for nearly two years to do Government print- 
ing, when the peo^jle of Nashville had been assured that all citizens 
would be protected in the use and enjoyment of their property so 
soon as they submitted and acknowledged the supremacy of the 
Federal laws. They had surrendered, and Nashville, including 
these claimants, was under the protection of the Federal Govern- 
ment when their property was seized for governmental purposes. 

With this assurance of the Government that the citizens of 
Nashville woiild be protected in the enjoyment and use of their 
property, the claimants had a right to expect that so long as they 
were loyal and obedient to the laws there would be no interfer- 
ence in any way with their right to jiossess, keep, and control this 
publishing house. Notwithstanding this fact, the Federal Gov- 
ernment forcibly seized the entire plant, operated it for nearly 
two 3'ears without paying any rent for it, and injured the prop- 
erty more than half its value. An abundance of evidence of the 
highest character was furnished, conclusively demonstrating the 
above statement. 

It was gratifying to me to see both .sides of the Senate rally to 
the support of this just measure, and the patriotic sentiments ex- 
pressed on the floor of the Senate by Senators Hoar and Hale 
and other Republican Senators were highly ajipreciated by the 
people of my State, and were an evidence that the antagonisms 
growing out of the late civil war had been forgotten and that we 
were again a happj', united counti'y. It was especially gratifying 
to me that Republican Senators had largely contributed to the 
passage of an act providing for the payment of a just claim going 
to a Southern institution, which claim arose by reason of the con- 
flict between the States in an unfortunate civil war. 

I do not desire to discuss further the merits of this claim. It 
will doubtless be conceded by this Senate and the entire country 
that the Government justly owed this money to the claimants. 
The (luestion to which I wish to direct the remainder of my re- 
marks has reference to the recent disclosures of the large fees 
I)aid counsel for services claimed to have been rendered on the 
passage of this bill, in view of the statements made on the floor 
of the Senate when the measure w^as under consideration. The 
senior Senator from Tennessee, always scrupulously honest and 
zealously guarding the interests of the Government, telegraphed 
to Nashville to Barbee & Smith, agents of the Book Publishing 
Company, asking them what amount of this sum would be paid 
as lawyers" fees. The telegram was as follows: 

Washington, Mon-h 7, ?S,"8. 
BAiiiiKt; & Smith, Methodist rultlishing House, Nashville, Tenn.: 

Tclcgrapli today answer to Senator Pasco's letter to you Satiinlay as to 
Stalih.ian having fee of 40 per cent or any other fee in case of payment of 
your r'laira. I would like to hear from you also. In my judgment, if true, 
It, will endanger the bill. 

WM. B. BATE. 
2417 



29 

In reply to this telegram Messrs. Barbee & Siiiith wired Senator 
Bate as follows: 

Nashville, Tenn., March 7, 1S93. 
Hon. "W. B. Bate, l^'ashington, D. C: 

We wired Senator Pasco ouly this morning as follows: " The statement ia 
untrue, and you are therefore authorized to deny it." 

BARBEE & SMITH. 

Now, mark you. Mr. President, Senator Bate wanted to know 
of Barbee & Smith by his telegram whether or not Mr. Stahl- 
man was to have a fee of 40 per cent or any other fee to be paid 
out of this claim, and the reply made by Messrs. Barbee & Smith 
said that the statement was untrue and authorized its denial on 
the floor of the Senate. This reijly was a positive and direct 
statement that neither 40 per cent nor any other fee would be paid 
in the event of the passage of this bill. In order to substantiate 
this statement, I took the precaution to ask the agent who was 
here representing the claim to coniirm this telegram, and 1 was 
assured most positively that this statement was true, and so stated 
on the floor of the Senate. I had read the telegram to General 
Bate before making this statement. It now appears there was a 
contract to pay 35 per cent of this claim to counsel representing it. 

Both myself and colleague were asked by the Methodist minis- 
ters of Georgia to support this bill. They asked us to give it our 
support because it was a just demand due from the Government 
to the Methodist Episcopal Church South. These ministers are 
men of the highest character and give their life work to the cause 
of Christianity, and I desire to say, knowing them as I do, that 
theyrepudiate and condemn the methods and deception practiced 
as developed since the passage of this bill. I feel sure that when 
the facts are fully understood this noble class of men in my State, 
always laboring for the good of their fellow-man, will disapprove 
and condemn the conduct of the agents of the Publishing House 
Company in misleading not only General Bate, but the entire 
Senate. 

I have for more than a quarter of a century been a member of 
that church which was to be benefited by the passage of this act. 
I do not hesitate to place the criticism (and severe criticism is de- 
served) on the agents for their conduct in misleading the Senate 
as has been disclosed by recent publications throughout the coun- 
try. If these agents had a contract to ]pay Mr. Stahlman 35 per 
cent of the recovery and sent a telegram to General Bate denying 
that he was to receive 40 per cent or any other fee, then a palpa- 
ble fraud was committed upon the Southern Methodist Episcopal 
Church, and the conduct of the men who apparently are respon- 
sible for this fraud should be thoroughly ventilated and exposed. 

The wrong in this case consists in the fact that more than a 
hundred thousand dollars of this sum appropriated went to pay 
counsel fees when the Senate was assured that not one cent of it 
would go in this way. I do not believe these facts have ever been 
made apparent to the ministers representing this Christian denom- 
ination. 

I believe that when the facts are fully understood that the 
Methodist Episcopal Church South will unanimously condemn 
and repudiate the conduct of these agents in misleading General 
Bate and the entire Senate. Candor compels me to say that the 
conduct of Messrs. Barbee & Smith, as I see it, is without excuse 
and has placed in a false position many Southern Senators, and is 
a reflection upon the membership and rights of a religious institu- 
344r 



30 

tion that was not cognizant of their conduct, an institution whose 
ministry, for deep and consecrated inety and unassailable honesty, 
have the approval and indorsement of the good people of this 
entire country. 

It has only recently been known that the Senate was led to be- 
lieve that this entire sum was to go for the benefit of the church, 
when, in fact, more than a third of it w^as otherwise appropriated. 
These disclosures will lead to a thorough investigation and, I 
trust, to the exposure and condemnation of the guilty parties. 
The Methodist Episcopal Church South can not afford to and will 
not ai^prove, ratif j', or in any way palliate the conduct of the 
guilty parties. The Senator from Washington does this noble in- 
Btitution a great injustice whenho at tempts to make its ministry 
and membership responsible for the condtict of these agents. Let 
the investigation be had. Let it be searching and thorough, and 
let no guilty party escape. What we want in both church and 
state is clean, honest methods, and then we can transmit to our 
children a pure, just, and good Government. 

I am through, Mr. President. 

Mr. HOAR. Before the Senator sits down, I hope he will add 
to his veryiiroijer and just advice and counsel that this Methodist 
Book Concern ought properly, if the facts be as he is now in- 
formed, to return the money to the Treasury of the United States. 
There is no other way in which they can reimdiate this transac- 
tion. Then it will be for Congress hereafter to determine what 
Bhall be done with the claim. 

Mr. CLAY. I agree with the distinguished Senator from Mas- 
sachusetts. 

Mr. HOAR. I hope the Senator will add that advice to tlie 
Methodist Book Concern. 



JSiondiuj, Jane IS, ISOS. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair lays before the Senate 
resolution No. 382, offered by the Senator from Massachusetts 
[Mr. Lodge] , upon which the Senator from Georgia [Mr. Bacon] 
is recognized. 

Mr. COCKRELL. Let the resolution be read for information. 

The Secretary read the resolution submitted by Mr. Lodge on 
the "Jth instant, as follows: 

Ecsolved, That tho Committee on Claims bo directetl to inquire antl report 
to whom tho money was paid under tlie claim of the Methodist Book C'oncern 
South; and also as to all circumstances connected with tho passage of the bill 
I)roviding for the payment of said claim, and witli tho subsequent payment 
of the money under said act of Congress. 

Mr. BACON. Mr. President, it so happens that I was active in 
the effort to prociire the passage of the bill referred to in the reso- 
lution. I was a member of the Committee on Claims in the Fifty- 
fourth Congress, before which the bill was at one time, and al- 
though it did not pass both Houses in the Fifty-fourth Congress, 
it was acted upon by that committee of that Congress. I was a 
very active supporter of the bill, as it will be remembered by the 
members who then belonged to the Committee on Claims. 1 sup- 
ported it because I thought it w^as an eminently just measure. I 
thought that not only had there been great injury and damage 
done to the claimants, but that in addition the Goveriunent had 
really received a benefit equal to the amount asked for in compen- 
:J147 



31 

sation to the Methodist Book Concern. The bill passed the Senate 
in the Fifty-fourth Congress, bnt failed to pass the House. 

In the Fifty-fifth Congressit was again introduced, and altho"gh 
I am not, in the present Congress, a member of the Committee on 
Claims, I was still an active friend of the measure. I not only 
advocated it in the usual way, but I also did so in making repre- 
sentations to my colleagues of the Senate in the effort to get them 
to support it. Having done so, and being in a measure respon- 
sible for the passage of the bill, but, of course, not to the same 
extent as some others who had devolved upon them the leader- 
ship in the matter, I feel under the charges which have been made 
in the public press that it is due to myself to state what I know 
about the matter. 

I had not the remotest suspicion that there was anyone repre- 
senting tliatbill before the Senate who had any pecuniary interest 
in its passage. I thought that those who were working for it were 
doing so because of their interest in the gi-eat and influential re- 
ligious denomination which was specially interested in the passage 
of the bill. If there was anyone known around Washington City 
as a professional attorney connected with the matter, I was not 
informed of the fact. As is known by all, the principal advocate 
outside of the Senate was a Mr. Stahlman. I knew him to be a 
man of large wealth. I knew him to be the husband of a very 
ardent and zealous member of the Methodist Church; and my im- 
pression and belief was that his interest in the matter was due to 
that relationship. Whether he himself was or was not a member 
of the church, I did not know, but my information was that his 
wife is an exceedingly zealous member of the church and was 
very much interested in the question of the passage of the bill. 

In the Fifty- fourth and in the Fifty-fifth Congresses I had never 
heard a suggestion that anyone was interested as a lobbyist or as 
an attorney in the passage of that bill and would get a large fee 
if the bill was passed, until a very short time before its jiassage — 
I have forgotten how long — when the suggestion was made to me 
by the junior Senator from Indiana [Mr. Fairbanks] right in 
that part of the Chamber back of the Republican side. He stated 
to me that he desired to vote for the bill, that he was friendly to 
its passage, but that he had been informed that there was a very 
large fee to be paid out of it to those who were pressing the matter 
before the Senate and before the House of Representatives, and 
that he would not support the bill if that were true. I replied to 
him that I did not think that could possibly be true, but that I 
would ascertain what were the facts and report to him. 

I immediately sought Mr. Stahlman, who was the only man I 
knew connected with the matter. I stated to him the report 
which was being circulated, and asked him whether or not it was 
true. He stated to me personally and emphatically that there 
was no contract of any kind for the payment of a fee to anybody — 
to himself or to anyone else — out of the money which was sought 
to be recovered on account of this claim, adding that of course 
there were some necessary expenses which would have to be paid; 
and- while the amount of those expenses was not indicated by him 
in any way, the impression left ui^on my mind was that they were 
comparatively insignificant, such expenses as would naturally be 
incuri'ed by persons for hotel bills, traveling expenses, and things 
of that kind — absolutely necessary expenses. I state that as the 
simple impression left on my mind, but the statement, was dis- 
3447 



tinctly iiuule that there was no contract of any kind by which a 
fee would he paid out of the amount recovered. 

I immediately thereafter saw the Senator from Indiana [Mr. 
FairijanksJ and repeated substantially to him at the time — which 
he doubtless will remember — the statement which was made to 
me. I made the same statement to the Senator from Tennessee 
[Mr. Bath |, I think also to the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] 
and others who were prominent in the advocacy of this claim, that 
Buch representations had been made to me by Mr. Stahlman. 

Mr. FAIRBANKS. Will the Senator allow me? 

Mr. BACON. If the Senator will pardon mo for a moment, the 
Senator from Tennessee recalls to my mind what I had forgotten, 
and that is that when the Senator from Indiana called my attention 
to the matter, before going to see Mr. Stahlman I saw the Senator 
from Tennessee and others, and told them of the report, and, at 
their instance, I went and saw Mr. Stahlman. After having had 
an interview with him, I came back and reported to the Senator 
from Indiana and to these several gentlemen, whose attention, with 
my own, had been called to the matter by the Senator from Indi- 
ana. I now yield to the Senator from Indiana, if he desire^ to say 
anything, and shall be glad to hear him. ^Wi* 

Mr. FAIRBANKS. I was merely going to suggest to the Sen- 
ator from Georgia that when his attention was called to the rumor 
that a fee was to be paid and that those Senators on this side who 
were favorably disposed toward the claim would oppose it if the 
rumor were true, the Senator from Georgia said, if I remember 
correctly, that he would himself oppose it if there was any truth 
in the report, but he Vt'as positive that there was no truth what- 
ever in it. 

Mr. BACON. 1 do not remember having said to the Senator 
that I would have so voted, but such undoubtedly would have 
been my action, and I have no doubt that I did so state, because 
that was my feeling. 

Mr. President, I do not think there has ever been any action by 
Congress in the allowance of a claim where there was a more gen- 
erous and beneficent desire on the part of Congress to do a good 
action; and that it was in the feeling that this was due to this 
great religious denomination, if not as a matter of strict law, as a 
matter which could properly be treated in this generous and lib- 
eral manner in dealing with a great religious denomination; and 
that the idea that it was a business transaction, to l)e lobbied 
through Congress, would have been abhorrent to the mind and 
thought of almost every Senator and Representative who .sup- 
ported it. 

For myself, Mr. President, regardless of any persoiial relations 
or feelings, I should certainly have refused to have supported the 
passage of the bill if I had known that a third of the amount ap- 
propriated was to be paid to the promoters of tlie bill, and that it 
would be diverted from the beneficent i)urpose and end which wo 
had in view. 

Mr. President, when one comes to relate the substance or the 
words of a conversation ordinarily, there is frequently hesitation 
in one's mind as to the exact words spoken or oven the substance 
of them, but that is not true where there are attendant circum- 
stances which fix the matter very strongly in the mind. If this 
conversation with Mr. Stahlman had been had with me in the or- 
dinary course, I might be in a position to doubt whether my recol- 
lection v/as entirely accurate; but it having been brought about 
3417 



33 

in the way that it was by the suggestion first to me of the Senator 
from Indiana, and by the request of the Senator from Tennessee 
and others that I would go to see Mr. Stahlman and ask of him 
whether or not the rumor was true, and my immediate return and 
reporting to those several Senators of what he said, leaves no pos- 
sible doubt about the entire accuracy of my recollection, and there 
is no possible doubt about it. 

As to the question of percentage, that did not enter into the 
conversation with Mr. Stahlman at all, because I had at that time 
never heard any specific percentage mentioned. The Senator 
from Indiana in reporting to me what he had heard, simply stated 
that he had understood it to be a very large fee, without stating 
any percentage. In my conversation with the Senator from Ten- 
nessee and others before going to see Mr. Stahlman, no mention 
was made of any percentage; and in my conversation with him 
(Mr. Stahlman) there was no mention of any percentage. It was 
simply a question whether or not there was a large fee to be paid 
to him or others out of the recovery on account of this claim 
of the Methodist Book Concern, and his assurance to me was that 
there was no such contract, but that there would necessarily be 
some exx^ense to be paid. 

Mr. President, I do not desire to go further into this subject, as 
other Senators have expressed very fully their own individual 
views and the views of others. I can only state that I deplore and 
regret it extremely. I regret it because of the fact that a very 
large portion of this money has been diverted from the object we 
had in view when we passed the bill, and I regret it extremely on 
account of the mortification which must come to this very large 
class, this religious society, who are among the most respectable 
people in our section of the country, and who would be among 
the last to be parties to any imposition by which money was to bo 
gotten from Congress under anything like false pretenses. 

Mr. LINDSAY. Mr. President, as 1 was mentioned by the Sen- 
ator from Tennessee [Mr. Bate] as one of the Senators to whom 
representations had been made, I deem it proper to make a short 
statement of facts, so far as I know anything about them. 

I expected to vote for this claim. I took it for granted, it having 
passed the other House and having repeatedly been reported as a 
just claim, that it was a proper claim to be allowed. My friends 
around me here were greatly interested in it, and I relied upon their 
judgment and statements, and had myself taken no special inter- 
est in the matter. 

Some w^eek or ten days before the claim came up, Mr. Stahlman 
furnished me some printed material and asked me to examine it 
as to the effect of some proceedings relating to the confiscation of 
the property and rights acquired. I read those papers and thought 
nothing more of the matter until a night or two before the bill 
came up, when Stahlman came to me and spoke of these re- 
ports—which was the first time I had ever heard of them— and 
expressed some fears that they would have a bad effect on the vote 
in the Senate. He said the reports were untrue. While I would 
not undertake to detail the conversation, he left the clear impres- 
sion upon my mind that he had no pecuniary interest whatever in 
this claim— that he was representing the Methodist Church South 
on account of his association with that church. He stated that 
the expenses of the preparation of the claim would have to be 
paid, but that it was a small amount, to a gentleman here v,^ho had 
looked after it and kept those in interest apprised of its condition. 



When he got through , I remark chI that I supposed for these expenses 
about S3, 000 or $2,500 would have to be piid to claim agents. He 
acquiesced in that statement by me and the matter dropped. 

When Senators read the telegrams here, they were consistent 
with the impression which Stahhnan had left on my mind: and 
I concluded that he had made an absolutely true statement of 
facts. 1 was a little surprised when he told me that no fees were 
to be paid, for I supposed the attorneys or agents who prepared 
and who prosecuted the claim would be paid a reasonable fee, a 
reasonable compensation. Of course I did not suppose anything 
like the amount that is reported to have been paid would be paid; 
but I would not have been surprised if 10 or 13 or 15 per cent had 
been paid to claim agents. 

I can not say that Mr. Stahlman's statement to me affected my 
vote. 1 would have been willing for the claim agents to be paid 
a reasonable compensation for their services; but I do say that I 
was encouraged to vote for the bill when those telegrams were 
read, which seemed to verify the statement Stahlman had made 
to me. 

Mr. HOAR. Jtr. President, I do not remember that anybody 
has spoken to me aboiit this claim for a great many years — I was 
interested in it when 1 first came to the Senate — except the Rep- 
resentative from the Nashville district of Tennessee, who sat in 
my colleague's seat for a few minutes when the claim was on its 
passage here. He made a statement which 1 repeated to the Senate. 

Having had, of course, a very large experience now in such mat- 
ters, having been, 1 think, for twelve years — I am not sure about 
the length of time, but for a great many years — a member of the 
Committee on Claims of this body, I wish it to be understood, 
and it can not be repeated too often, that there is no reason what- 
ever for any person who has a claim against the United States 
Government to employ a claim agent, lobbyist, or attorney. 

With the exception which I will state in a moment, they never 
are of any use. When it is known that they are employed, the 
claim is made odious by their employment. They sometimes pre- 
tend to have rendered services, but their services are without 
value. The Senator or the Representative is always glad, as it is 
his duty, to see that the just claim of his constituent against this 
Government which requires legislation for its i^ayment is prop- 
erly presented to and properly taken up by the appropriate com- 
mittee. I always do it; my colleague here, I am sure, always 
does it; and my colleagues in the other House always do it there; 
and what is true of my own State is true of every other State in 
the Union. 

There are some few cases where the putting together of facts, 
advising the claimants what kind of evidence is required for the sup- 
port of the claim, where that evidence is likely to be found, and in 
some cases the collecting of precedents are services which ought 
not to be put either upon the committee or the Representative or 
the Senator, and the employment of a competent lawyer for those 
purposes may be necessary. I never have known a case, I believe, 
in my whole experience — possibly some peculiar exception might 
be suggested— where a fee of one hundred or two hundred dollars, 
and in very few cases, perhaps, three hundred, four hundred, or 
five hundred dollars, but hardly ever is there a case where a fee 
of one hundred or two hundred dollars would not be abundant 
compensation for all the legal service which is needed. It does 
not require the highest order or the most costly legal service, as a 
ai47 



35 

rule; and, with that exception, the claim will receive the glad and 
svifScient attention of the Representative or Senator, or both, of 
the party interested. 

In a claim which depends so wholly npon matters of pnblic 
policy and principle in relation to the liability of the Government 
in times of war to the citizen in the theater of war, and the policy 
which should be pursued in dealing with institutions of religion, 
education, or charity, there is absolutely no need of such employ- 
ment. 

As to this man whose name has been iised, and who got $100,000 
out of that church— I will not say it is a pure swindle, because I 
should not be justified in using so harsh a term without knowing 
what he or they may have to say, but it is an utter plunder, a folly, 
and a delusion. I wish it could be impressed upon everybody 
who has a claim against the Government that there is no neces- 
sity for employing lobbyists or legislative agents: and, in the next 
place, that the employment of such people usually, in point of fact, 
gives a black eye to a claim. 

What ought to be done in this matter is this: The representa- 
tives of the Methodist Church ought to pay back that money into 
the Treasury forthwith, and I believe they are advised to do so; 
and the man who has received that $100,000, after this misrepre- 
sentation, if he expects to have a shred of character left to his 
back, ought to pay in the §100,000 also. Then Congress will 
promptly consider what justice requires to be done, as if nothing 
had been done. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President, two propositions, I think, 
are equally clear in connection with this claim. First, that the 
appropriation woitld not have been made if it had been known 
that this fee was to be paid. The appropriation would not have 
been made if it had not been for the denial made upon this floor 
that any agreement to pay the fee had been made. 

Mr. President, the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] not now 
in his seat seemed to think it was an end of the case when he 
and other Senators had repudiated all knowledge of the agree- 
ment with Mr. Stahlman and had condemned the agreement; 
that the case was at an end; that nothing more was to be done 
about it; that they and the Senators who gave the assurances that 
there was no truth in what was charged in reference to Mr. 
Stahlman's contract had nothing more to do. 

Mr. President, I do not so understand the situation. I think 
the Senators upon this floor who carried through that large 
claim^not a legal debt, but a donation — who carried it through 
this body, representing that tliere was no truth in the stories that 
were afloat as to this fee, who put the Senators who tried to limit 
a possible fee in the attitude of being ungenerous — I think they 
ought to do something aboiit it or induce the Methodist Book Con- 
cern to do something about it. Now, Mr. President, what shall 
they do? 

The other proposition is a clear one, that this money can be re- 
covered from Mr. Stahlman. It was not a legal payment. An 
agreement under the circumstances, no matter who made it, was 
not binding upon the Methodist Book Concern. It was void in 
law, and the Methodist Book Concern can recover It back. It is 
not estopped from making that claim. If it was the case of an 
individual who had made this contract and paid the money, prob- 
ably the law would not give him a remedj' against the lobbyist 
Avho had extorted such a vast sum from him. But that is not the 



Ob 

case. This is a corporation or an organization or an association 
which could only make a lawful contract by agents legally en- 
titled to make a contract for them; and the men who made this 
contract were not so authorized and did not have the legal au- 
thority to bind the Methodist Book Concern to pay $100,000 out 
of §288.000 for lobbying this donation through the Senate of the 
United States or through the Congress of the United States. 

So. JMr. President, it is perfectly clear that the Senators who 
procured the passage of this appropriation by their assertions 
ought to do someth ng about it. and it is perfectly clear what they 
ought to do about it. They ought to make the Methodist Book 
Concern recover this money from Mr. Stahlman and either bring 
it here to the Congress of the United States and lay before Con- 
gress the money from Mr. Stahlman, or else they ought to show 
a.iudgment for $100. 000 against hiin,andcome here andsay: "Wo 
can not get tlie money, but here is a judgment, though we can 
not collect it." 1 say that nothing less than this ought to satisty 
the Senate, ought to satisfy the House of Representatives, ought 
to satisfy the public conscience and the public mdignation in con- 
nection with this transaction. 

The Senator from Massachuselts [Mr. Hoar] thinks that the 
Methodist Book Concern ought immediately to bring this mouey 
back into the Treasury. I suppose the Senator does not mean they 
ought to bring back the §'28^,000, because Stahlman has gottea 
$100,000 of that. The Senator means that they ought to^ bring 
$188,000 back and give it to Congress. That would be worthy of 
this religiotis publishing house, which has appealed to the nation 
to give them this monej% and now find that through this enormous 
scandal $100,000 of the money has been taken by Mr. Stahlman. 
That would be worth}', Mr. President, of the organization at all 
events. 

Mr. FAIRBANKS. If the Senator from New Hampshire will 
allow me to interrupt him, 1 think he misunderstands the senior 
Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Hoar]. As 1 understand the 
Senator, he thinks the church is morally bound to return not the 
$188,000, but the $288,000. 

Mr. HOAR. Of course. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Morally I think they are bound to do so; 
but I should be willing to take it in installments — no pun intended 
upon the name of the lobbyist [laughter] — but I should be willing 
to take $18iS,000 of it to begin with, and give them a little time to 
pay back the other $100,000. 

But, Mr. President, my only point is that the subject is not to be 
dismissed either in this body or in the public forum of conscience 
by the Senator from Florida, who admits that he helped to deceive 
the Senate, and now says because the Methodist Book Concern had 
a much larger claim than $288,000 and the Government has not 
lost anything, it is wholly a question of whether the Methodist 
Book Concern 

Mr. PASCO. Mr. President 

Mr. CHANDLER. One moment 

Mr, PASCO. Right there I wish to say 

Mr. CHANDLER. Whether the Methodist Book Concern shall 
do 

Mr. PASCO. I want the Senator "s attention right now. He 
said that I 

Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator can not get it in that way, I 
will have him to understand. I ask to be protected in the right to 
the floor, Mr. President. 
3117 



Mr. PASCO. Mr. President, the Senator 

Mr. CHANDLKR. Mr. President, 1 object. If the Senator 
asks mo to yield the floor, I will yield it to him. 

Mr. PASCO. I am sure if the Senator will listen to me a mo- 
ment, he will retract the vei'y offensive words he made use of in 
connection with me. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I will listen to the Senator with pleasure. 

Mr. PASCO. I thought the Senator would after he got over 
his 

Mr. CHANDLER. Not because the Senator is threatening 
me 

Mr. PASCO. I did not threaten the Senator. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from New Hamp- 
shire yield? 

Mr. CHANDLER. I do. 

Mr. PASCO. I want an opportunity to call the Senator's at- 
tention to the unjust language which he was using, when he said 
that I admitted that I had deceived the Senate in this matter. He 
knows that I have admitted no such thing, and he knows very 
well that I am incapable of deceiving the Senate. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Suppose the Senator permits metoproceec!. 
I will say that I do not think he intended to deceive the Senate. I 
think he acted in the most perfect good faith, I think he sent his 
telegram to Messrs. Barbee & Smith and reported the denial by 
them in the most absolute and perfect good faith. If the Senator 
would rather I should say that he led the Senate into an error or 
caused the Senate to vote under a mistake, or anything else that 
is more euphonious, I will use that language; but all the same, Mr. 
President, the Senate was deceived, grossly and wickedly de- 
ceived — no, I will withdraw the word "wickedly" — grossly and 
outrageously deceived when it voted on this proposition. 

Mr. PASCO. If the Senator will allow me 

Mr. CHANDLER. Does the Senator wish to interrupt me? 

Mr. PASCO. I do, for a moment. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I yield to the Senator. 

Mr. PASCO. The Senator "s language seems to intimate that I 
was the deceiver. He knows very well that I was not and that 
there was no wrongful conduct on my part. I gave the Senate, as 
I stated in the remarks I made on Thursday last, all the informa- 
tion that was in my possession. I used due diligence to obtain that 
information. As he states, I wrote to the Book Agents setting forth 
the rumors that were circulating here at the Capitol, and asked for 
a full explanation. I made no statement that was based upon my 
own information, I stated it upon what I regarded as as high au- 
thority as could possibly be found in this country, and that was the 
statement of these two gentlemen, who are above all reproach, the 
heads of the Publishing House of the Methodist Church South, 
who stood as high in the country as any man in it; and it was 
their information which I communicated to the Senate, not my own . 

Mr. CHANDLER. May I ask the Senator a question? Was 
the Senate deceived before it voted and when it voted? 

Mr. PASCO. I already stated in my remarks on Thursday last, 
Mr. President, that if these facts were true, and I feared they 
were, these Book Agents had deceived the Senate; but when the 
Senator 

Mr. CHANDLER, Then I will ask the Senator 

Mr, PASCO, Let me get through before you ask another ques- 
tion. 
■M7 



38 

Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly. 

Mr. PASUO. But when the Senator, imiutentionally . of course, 
brings up my name as connected with the deception, of course he 
is doing me an injustice, and he is manly enough, when he recalls 
his language, to put it in proper shape and entirely acquit me of 
all share in any deception that was practiced at that time. 

Mr. CHANDLER. No intentional deception, not the slightest 
probability of it. The Senate was deceived, and the Senator from 
Florida was unwittingly, if you please, the agent in inoducing 
that deception, 

Mr. BACON. Mr. President 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Does the Senator from New Hamp- 
shire yield to the Senator from Georgia? 

Mr. CHANDLER. I would rather go on with what I have to 
say, unless the Senator wants to ask me a question. 

Mr. BACON. 1 do not interrupt very often; but I dislike to 
hear the Senator put himself in a wrong position. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I dislike to see Senators upon the other side 
in a wrong position. 

Mr. BACON. That is what I wish to explain. There is no 
doubt about the fact that the Senate was deceived. It is equally 
true that the Senator from Florida, so far from being the agent 
by which the deception was practiced, was himself deceived in 
common with otlier Senators; and that is the position in which 
the Senator from New Hampshire ought to put him. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Being himself first deceived, he was an 
agent in deceiving others. Now, how does that suit the Senator? 

Mr. BACON. The Senator from New Hampshire is wrong. 
The Senator from Florida simply presented to the Senate the 
exact telegram b}' which he himself was deceived. If he had 
acted upon that telegram and accepted it as true and gone on and 
stated, without giving his authority, "I am satisfied this is not 
so; there is nothing of the kind,'' then there might be some pro- 
priety in the position taken by the Senator from New Hampshire. 
But when the Senator from Florida receives a dispatch which he 
himself reads to the Senate, he simply gives to the Senate the 
same information which had been given to him, and does not in 
any manner make any representation. 

Mr. CHANDLER. How would the words " innocent deceiver" 
satisfy the Senator from Georgia? 

Mr. BACON. No. sir; by no means. I think it is unworthy of 
the Senator from New Hampshire that he should seek to i)ut the 
Senator from Florida in any such position. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I am always pleased to be instructed by my 
friends the Senator from Florida and the Senator from Georgia. 

Mr. BACON. I do not undertake to instruct the Senator from 
New Hampshire, but I do protest that it is unworthy of the Sen- 
ator from New Hampshire or any otlier Senator to seek even by 
indirection to put such an accusation upon the Senator from 
Florida. 

Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator stated that once, and then, 
when I was proceeding to reply, he interrupted me, and, without 
permission, stated it again. 

Mr. BACON. I am not interrupting the Senator now. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I have disclaimed all intention to make any 

unkind or unjust imputation on the Senator from Florida. My 

feelings of friendship for him are equal to those I entertain for 

the Senator from Georgia. They were all deceived; there is no 

;hi7 



39 

doubt about that; and the Senate wag deceived; and nobody did 
it except Barbee & Smith. Is that satisfactory? 

Mr. BACON. That is all right. 

Mr. BATE. I suppose the remarks of the Senator from New 
Hampshire apply to all who participated in the matter. 

Ml'. CHANDLER. Unquestionably. I should be very unwill- 
ing to put myself in the attitude of believing, and I do not believe, 
that one single Senator on this floor knew that these fees had been 
agi-eed to be x)aid and did not state it to the Senate or stated to 
the contrary. But there are certain important facts which still 
remain to be dealt with. 

Mr. PASCO. If the Senator from New Hampshire will allow 
me, I wish to have him retract absolutely and entirely the word 
he made use of in saying I was an agent. He knows that he is 
doing me an injustice when he says that. I was not an agent at all. 
I presented information which I as a Senator had acquired. I 
got it after due diligence. I gave it to the Senate for what it was 
worth, and 1 believed, as he believed, that it came from the very 
highest possible source from which it could come. Now, when 
he says I was an agent in deceiving the Senate, if he will carefully 
weigh his words, he will see that they imply a reflection upon me. 
I think the Senator is too just to imply any such censure, and I 
can not remain patiently under such an insinuation as that. I 
hope he will entirely withdraw it and see that I am put right 
upon the record. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I do not know what the Senator will do 
when he says ho will not rest patiently under what I have said. 
If the Senator will do and say whatever he sees fit to do and say 
about this matter 

Mr. PASCO. I appeal to the sense of justice of the Senator 
from New Hampshire. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I will gladly go on with my remarks. 

Mr. PASCO. I appeal to the good judgment and fairness of 
the Senator from New Hampshire, and ask him now to put me 
right. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I understand that all I said was- — • 

Mr. PASCO. The Senator said I was an agent. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I understand that all I said was this: First 
I said 

Mr. PASCO. He knows what an agent is. 

Mr. CHANDLER. First I said the Senator from Florida had 
deceived the Senate or aided in deceiving the Senate. The Sen- 
ate was deceived. Afterwards I said that the Senator and other 
Senators who had made these representations had been the agents 
of deception. Now, Mr. President, I do not think that is very 
offensive language. I have stated distinctly that they did it un- 
wittingly; that they were not aware that the facts were not as 
they stated them to be upon their own responsibility as well as 
upon the responsibility of this telegram to the Senate; and it seems 
to me I have gone about far enough. 

Mr. PASCO. An agent is a participant in the wrongdoing of 
his lu-incipal, and when the Senator says that I was an agent in 
deceiving the Senate he knows that he is incorrect, and I wish 
him to be manly enough now to make a proper correction of that. 

Mr. CHANDLER. I said the Senator was not an intentional 
deceiver. This is not a matter of words; it is a matter of intent. 

Mr. PASCO. I want the words to set forth the actual facts in 
the case; and I ask the Senator as a manly and fair man to put 
me right upon the record. 

3147 



40 

Mr. CHANDLER. I will not allow the Senator to put words 
into my mouth. I think I have made all the amendes 1 ought to 
make for any language I have used. It will stand in the Record 
as I have uttered it, and I should like to go on with my remarks, 
with the permission of the Senator from l:''lorida. 

Mr. PASCO. Mr. President, then 1 wish to state, and I desire 
to put it upon the Record, that any statement or insinuation 
that I had any agency, direct or indirect, in deceiving the Senate 
is utterly without foundation, and the Senator from New Hamp- 
shire knows it. 

Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President. I repeat my statement that 
the truth is the exact opposite of what the Senator from Florida 
has just said. 

When 1 was interrupted I was saying that the Senator from 
Florida had not sufficiently satisfied the requirements of the oc- 
casion by saying that tlie Government of the United States had 
nothing to do with this business, because it concerned only the 
Methodist Book Concern. That was the Senator's argument, that 
although the Senate had been deceived, although re{)resentations 
had been made to the Senate that no fee would be paid, and 
although acting under that deception this appropriation had been 
made, yet all that was necessary was that there should be a re- 
pudiation on this floor by Senators of any knowledge that the 
facts were contrary to what they said they were, and that ended it; 
that it was wholly a subject for the Methodist Book Concern to 
settle and decide. I had merely taken the floor in order to say I 
thought it was incumbent upon those Senators to do something; 
that I thought it was incumbent upon the Senators who, acting 
honestly and being themselves deceived, had led the Senate into 
making this appropriation, imder the circumstances, to induce the 
Methodist Book Concern to at least recover this money from Mr. 
Stahlman. Other Senators think that the Methodist Book Con- 
cern should not only ])ursue Mr. Stahlman and get the money 
back, but refund the $188,000 plus the $100,000 to the Government 
of the United States, because this money has been taken out of the 
Treasury under a misapprehension and through tlie deception, by 
whomsoever practiced, of Senators upon this floor. 
_ Mr. TILLMAN. Mr. President, I should like to call the atten- 
tion of the Senator from New Rampsliire to one point or phase of 
the subject he has been discussing. The bill to pay the Methodist 
Book Concern for the damage and use of its property had passed 
the House and was on its passage here. The question of attorneys* 
fees was sprung by me. I had heard in the corridors and from 
Senators that a large proportion of this claim was to go to attor- 
neys, and I asked the (luestion of the Senator from Tennessee as 
to bow much of the money was to go in that way. He replied and 
read the telegram from Barbee & Smith, and the Senator from 
Florida followed with corroborative testimony to the fact that 
there were no such contracts out and no money was to be i aid. 

The amendment offered by the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. 
Lodge] would have passed, limiting the attorney's fee to $5,000, 
but for these assurances. The Senate did not intend to vote down 
the bill. It intended to pay the money, because the report accom- 
panying tlie bill had shown it was a just claim. What we were 
after was to prevent the sharks and shylocks who are prowling 
around the corridors here, agents for this concern and that and 
this corporation and that, and influencing legislation, from get- 
ting any of it. 
att7 



41 

These gentlemen, Senators Bate and Pasco, have not deceived 
anybody, so far as I can see, but they have been made the medium 
of deceiving the Senate as to the fee to be paid the attorneys. The 
contention of tlie Senator from New Hampshire that the Meth- 
odist Church should be made to refund the entire amount I do 
not think has any business here. We were deceived as to the dis- 
position of this money, and we would have passed the amendment 
limiting the amount of attorneys' fees but for the high sense of 
propriety of the senior Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. HoarJ , 
who declared that if he had assurances from President Eliot, of 
Harvard, that a donation for that college was to come to them 
with clean hands, he would consider it an insult to offer an amend- 
ment which seemed to reflect upon the honesty of those who made 
the assurance. He also went further and stated that the reason 
why ne did not want the amendment to go on was because if it 
went back to the House, the House or its Speaker wanted to kill 
the bill, and he did not want to give him a chance. 

Now, why does the Senator from New Hampshire demand that 
the Southern Methodist Church shall refund the entire amount of 
this money? If they have been deceived by their agents, they will 
dismiss their agents in disgrace, and I hope will make this thief 
and liar, Stahlman, disgorge. I do not see why a man should get 
up here and hound Senators and undertake to reflect upon the 
entire Methodist Church, as has been done. The Senate was not 
deceived by anyone as to the claim itself or its justice. It was 
grossly deceived as to the payment of attorneys' fees, and those 
w^ho perpetrated the outrage should be made to suffer, if there is 
any way to do that. 

Mr. TELLER. Mr. President, there is no occasion for any heat 
about this matter, nor is there any occasion to reflect upon any 
member of the Senate. The Senate acted in absolute good faith. 
I do not know what the facts are, I do not think anybody here 
knows what the facts are, and I understand the purpose of this 
resolution is to determine what they are. If the resolution goes 
to the Committee on Claims, the committee will investigate the 
matter, and I suppose it will pass without any question, as every- 
body is for it. The Senate will then know what the facts are and 
then it will be time enough to determine what is to be the advice 
of Senators to the Methodist Church. 

It is unfortunate that this condition of things occurred. The 
Methodist churches, South and North, constitute one of the great- 
est religious bodies in this or any other country. They represent 
a membership of considerably over 4.000,000 people, and if you 
include the Canadian Methodists, there are more than four million 
and a quarter of Methodists. The Methodist Church is one of the 
great Christian organizations of the world. We had a right to 
suppose that any man connected with the Book Concern told the 
exact truth, and would tell nothing else. There are a great number 
of men in public life who do not consider it to their discredit that 
the}' are connected with the Methodist Church, North or South. 
It is a church which contains within its membership the very best 
people in this country. 

There may be, and there was for a long time, a controversy 
whether this v/as an obligation which the Government should 
pay, and it was finally settled that the Government would paj"^ it, 
not as a legal obligation, but just exactly as you voted hero last 
Friday to pay $3,000,000 for supplies taken during the late war 
from citizens of the Southern States, which under the law of na- 
a447 



42 

tions we were not required to pay. Bnt we said early, ' ' We will 
not enforce the rigid law that enemy's country makes the prop- 
erty in it enemy's goods." We said every man who was loyal to 
the Government of the United States shall be paid for the prop- 
erty we have taken. We changed the international law on that 
subject, and we have been paying them rightfully and pro^jerly 
ever since. Later, as I said when this question was before us, 
under the leadership of the senior Senator from Massachusetts 
[Mr. Hoar], we changed the rule as to charitable organizations, 
as to church organizations, as to school organizations, and right- 
fully, too. There is no question about that. 

I made a report in this case twenty years ago or more. The 
senior Senator from Alabama [IMr. Morgan] made a report in 
favor of allowing this c'laini. I reported against it purely upon 
the law in the case and nothing else. There never was any ques- 
tion but that this church had suffered to the extent of more than 
$288,000. There never v,-as any question but that the Government 
had derived great benefit from the seizure; and when we paid 
§288,000 we paid practically what the Government had received, 
not what the Government had destroyed, not in settlement of 
v.'hat the church suffered. 

The church presented a claim for nearly $500,000, and more than 
§288,000 could have been proved to have been due them if the law 
was that they would be compensated, not alone for the use and 
occupation of the buildings, but for the use of a large amount of 
supplies that were claimed by some to be worth nearly §200,000, 
admitted by everybody, I think, to be worth at least §125,000. 
When we changed the method, when we said we will not make 
war upon churches, hospitals, schools, and colleges, as I think we 
ought to have said, then it was a question simply as to how much 
the church had siiffered, v,diat ought we to pay. 

The Committee on Claims in tiie other Congress reported the 
bill favorabl}', as I recollect. The last bill was reported favor- 
ably, but not for an amount. Congress had proposed to pay the 
church §150.000, which they declined to receive, and the commit- 
tee reported that the claim should go to the Court of Claims. 
When it went to the House, they said, "We will not send it to 
the Court of Claims; we will pay' §288,000." When it came back, 
it was a question whether we would adhere to our own bill or 
accept the amendment of the House. I am satisfied that if it had 
ever gone to the Court of Claims on the theory that we were to 
pay anything, we would have paid more than §288,000. 

Mr. President, the Government of the United States has not 
been robbed of anything, and there is no use of vituperation and 
complaint by a few prejudiced people in this country about this 
claim. TheSenate was not deceived in the claim as to the amount. 
The Senate would have passed this claim if it had known that 
the contract existed, but it undoubtedly would have limited the 
amount that should be paid to attornovs. 

Mr. CAFFERY. How old is the claim? 

Mr. TELLER. Since the peace. It has been presented ever 
since the close of the war. I reported on it twenty years ago, not 
disputing the facts of the majority of the committee, but upon a 
pure (luestion of law, which I think at the time was right; but 
we subsequently changed that, as I have stated. 

I did not believe when the bill was before the Senate, and I 
should not have believed if there had not been a word said here, 
that there was any contract for payment. I should have acted 

34 S7 



43 

npon the theory that this church organization never made a con- 
tract with any lawyer. Why? Because I have been familiar with 
this claim for twenty years, and during that time no lobbyist has 
ever addressed himself to me on the subject. I have had innumer- 
able letters from the most distinpaished Methodist divines and 
Methodist editors in the whole United States on this subject. I 
have never seen a claim agent, unless Mr. Stahlman was a clam 
agent, and at the instance of the two Senators from Tennessee the 
committee departed from its custom and allowed him to come be- 
fore the committee, upon the theory, as we supposed, that he was 
the church agent and not a lobbyist or attorney; that while he 
was an attorney at law. he was a church agent, not simply look- 
ing after this case, but very many other matters belonging to the 
church, and we supposed, at least I did, that he was on salary. 

Mr. BATE. That was the understanding of Senator Harris 
and myself. 

Mr. TELLER. I have no doubt, and I think it was stated by 
one or the other Senator who came before the committee. 

Mr. BATE. He stated it himself. 

Mr. TELLER. I do not know but that he did state it. I do 
not remember about that. 1 do not know now that he has any 
interest in it. I do not know who the beneficiaries of the contract 
are. Whether it is Barbee & Smith or whether it is somebody 
else is not material now. 

All 1 want to say is that in the first place the great Methodist 
Church has not been guilty of any coiTupt conduct in this affair. 
Somebody connected with it may have been guilty of misconduct, 
and I suppose it is the purpose of the resolution to determine who 
it is. I will venture to say that the great mass of that church will 
repudiate anything like distortion, as by saying '"no fee of 40 per 
cent is to be allowed; it is all false,'' when they knew that 35 per 
cent was to be allowed. The bishops of that church and the 
preachers of that church and the membership of that church will 
repudiate anything of that kind even though it may have been done 
by some of their members high in authority. I do not know what 
the facts are. 

1 am not going to insist that the church shall pay back the 
money until I know what use is to be m-ade of the money that is 
to go out, whether the §100,000 is to go into the pockets of some- 
body or whether, as has been suggested to me, whether correctly 
or not I do not know, that it is to be used for a special purpose in 
line with the real purpose of the organization, but not technically. 

I have here a telegram, and this is the only communication I 
have ever had with any of these people concerning this matter, 
except when Mr. Stahlman was before the committee. It is dated 
Nashville, Tenn., June 10, 1898, and is addressed to me. 

We hope the Lodge resoliition will pass and thot a thorough investiga- 
tion may follow. We do not care to discuss the matter now. All we ask, on 
oiu* own behalf as well as the church, is that you and other Senators who 
supported the claim shall suspend judgment and refrain from comment or 
critioi?m until after the committee shall have completed its work. Wo are 
persuaded that we shall be able to show to the satisfaction of the committee 
and the Senate that all statements made by us designed to promote the ims- 
sage of the bill were justified by the facts and circumstannesoi the case. 

^ BARBEE & SMITH. 

E. B. STAHLMAN. 

Mr. President, I regret that there should be anything said that 
looks like a reflection upon Senators who voted for the bill. I 
am not a bit sensitive myself about it. I am not at all disturbed 
by what may be said about deceiving the Senate. I should have 

3447 



44 

voted for the amendment if I bad deemed it proper, if I had sup- 
posed there was a contract of any kind in existence, and I should 
have made the limit less, probably. I was under the impression, 
as I said before, and should have been without a word from any- 
body here, that there was no contract whatever. I also enter- 
tained the opinion that after many years, when the era of good 
feeling was supposed to be approaching — wlien it ought to be ap- 
proaching — the Government of the United States could afford to 
pay back to the church that which it had taken from it; and if it 
paid more than the actual value of the goods it took, it would not 
pay more than the damage to that great church because of the 
use of the building and the destruction of the property. 

I will guarantee that if the resolution comes before the commit- 
tee we will endeavor to get at the truth of it without prejudice. 
We will endeavor to do it in such a way that the credit of the 
clinrch will not be injured unless there is some real reason why 
it should be. I confess mj'seli that I am sensitive about any at- 
tacks upon this great church, whether it is North or whether it is 
South. It is a church for which I have the greatest possible re- 
spect. It numbers among its membership my best friends and 
those whom I hold dearest. When there came here, as there did, 
the united voice of the bishops of this great Northern Church say- 
ing that the time had come when the Government of the United 
States could afford to pay this debt, which was absolutely a char- 
itable thing and to be devoted to charity, I voted for it gladlj', 
and I am glad now that I voted for it. I only regret that w^e did 
not piit on the limitation suggested by the Senator from Massa- 
chusetts [Mr. Lodge 1. or something of that character. 

Mr. MORGAN. Mr. President, the proceeding which resulted 
in the judgment of the Senate the other day and in a vote of 
$~'88,000 was begun on the 21st of January, 1873, by Judge Wright, 
of Iowa, a very eminent and a very honorable Senator. He in- 
troduced the claim in the Senate of the United States and a bill 
to support it to refer it to the Court of Claims for adjudication. 
In the same year a like bill was introduced into the House; I do 
not remember by whom. A majority report was made upon it 
adverse to the claim. When I came into the Senate in 1877, 1 was 
assigned to the Committee on Claims. That was four years after 
the subject had been started in the Senate of the United States 
on the motion of the Senator fi-om the Northwest. 

Judge Wright evidently understood, from his examination of 
the facts and the law of the case, for he was a very eminent 
jurist, that the Methodist Book Concern had some substantial 
rights which ought to 1)6 enforced in the Senate of the United 
States, and that it would bear the test of an examination in the 
Court of Claims. When I came here and was placed on the Com- 
mittee on Claims, in company with the Senator from Colorado 
[Mr. Teller] and other Senators of this body, the subject was 
referred to me by the committee. I do not know who introduced 
the bill. I am sure I did not. But the subject which had been 
then four years pending in the Senate of the United States was 
referred to me as a subcommittee 'of the Committee on Claims. 

There was then here in Washington a very venerable ex-Sena- 
tor, a man of great distinction, great ability, and great honor, Ex- 
Governor and Ex-Senator Foote, of Mississippi. Ho was inter- 
ested, as tlie agent of the Book Concern, in examining into and 
promoting this claim. When it was referred to me, Ex-Governor 
Foote come to me and we labored over it very assiduously for 



45 

quite a long time. The subject reqiiired a close and elaborate ex- 
amination. 1 made a report to the committee and from the com- 
mittee; the majority sustaining my report, we reported it to the 
Senate, the Senator from Colorado being then on the committee 
and dissenting upon the ground that the claim in his opinion was 
not based upon firm legal grounds, but was in the nature of a do- 
nation. I took the ground then, in that report, that the United 
States Government was boiuid for these damages not only under 
the laws of nations, but under the laws of the United States; that 
it was a debt the amount of which was able to be ascertained by 
positive evidence, and that there was no difficulty in the legal sit- 
uation at all. That is the ground we took. 

It is not necessary for me now to go through all the grounds 
upon which that claim rested, but I will nam.e two of them. The 
first one was that the Book Concern was seized by the military 
authorities at Nashville, Tenn., after the place had not only been 
captured, but while the circuit cotirt of the United States, Judge 
Catron presiding, and all the other powers of the United States 
Government were in full force and ellect; while Andrew Johnson 
was governor of the State, who had succeeded Isham G. Harris, 
and while the Government of the United States had its laws in 
full execution in the city of Nashville. After the seizure of the 
property by the military authorities a suit was instituted in the 
Federal court in Nashville for confiscation, and that suit was dis- 
missed upon the ground that the seizure took place after the Gov- 
ernment of the United States had reestablished its authority there. 

It was not a seizure under confiscation laws for rebellion or in- 
surrection or participation in anything of that kind; and Judge 
Catron, presiding, dismissed the cause upon that ground, thereby 
affirming the dominion and authority of all the United States 
powers and tribunals in the city of Nashville at the time. If that 
seizure had been made in Pittsburg, Pa., it could not have been 
anymore in violation of law than it was when made in Nashville, 

From these two facts, along with other facts which were estab- 
lished by the proclamation and the military orders of the diiierent 
commandants at Nashville, the committee deduced the coDcIusiou 
that the right of the Book Concern, of Nashville, was a legal right 
in the strictest possible sense. 

Then the question came up as to the amount. The proof of the 
military officers connected with the army operations at Nashville 
raised the amount of money that was due to the Book Concern 
very far above $388,000. The sum of $288,000 was sug:?ested by 
the examination of a commissioner or a commission that went 
through the whole subject and came to the conclusion that that 
was the proper compensation for the use of this property. He 
was a Federal officer. He ascertained the amount and stood by 
it, and gave his testimony to prove that that was correct. 

Here, then, that claim was jiresented, reported by the Commit- 
tee on Claims as a legal obligation resting npon the United States, 
quite as much so, Mr. President, as the French spoliation claims, 
certainly quite as much so as the claims the Senator from Colo- 
rado [Mr. Teller] brought in the other day, that we reported 
and voted to pay to the amount of $2,000,000. 

That report has stood here and borne the brunt of argument in 
this House and in the other, and no person has ever been able to 
upset it. I had the advantage of the great abilities of Governor 
Foote in preparing that report. I am satisfied that if you will 
now pass a resolution through this body and refer the matter to 
3147 



46 

the Committee on the Judiciary, that committee will report that 
the claim was honestly due from the Government of the United 
States iinder the law, not as a donation or benevolence or anything 
of the kind. It was a corporation chartered by the laws of Ten- 
nessee, and no plea of benevolence was put np in the report or anj^- 
whero else in justification of the allowance to be made. Nothing 
of that kind was contended for. It was put on the ground of 
solid, strict legal right. 

If the Senate of the United States in its vote has affirmed that 
legal right, then what becomes of the proposition that the Senate 
will have the money paid back out of the pockets of Senators who 
advocated it, for that is the intimation, or out of the Book Con- 
cern, for it is intimated again that it was a pure benevolence 
to them, and that inasmuch as they have been disappointed or 
have been scandalized by their agents, therefore it becomes the 
duty of this great church to renounce the whole atlfair and turn 
the money back into the Treasury of the United States? 

Well, Mr. President, if the doctrine of renunciation for con- 
science sake is established in this countrj', we will have to go very 
far back, and very deep, too, to get justice done. What will we 
do with the Credit Mobilier? What will we do with the De Golyer 
contracts? What Vv'ill we do with the sugar-trust lobby that has 
been paid for here, and that we have sustained by our votes from 
time to time? What will these conscientious Senators say about 
the refunding of claims and monej's that they voted for from time 
to time in the face of public scandal and denunciation? 

No, sir; an opportunity is presented to wound the hearts of a 
noble, generous, proud, magnanimous people in their church rela- 
tions, and there are Senators here who are only too anxious to 
visit their sting upon those people. Now, sir, I demand that those 
Senators who say that this is not a legal claim shall introduce a 
resolution here and refer it to the Judiciary Committee to ascer- 
tain and report whether or not it is a strict legal claim and has 
been so all the time. 

So far as the present resolution is concerned, there is not a 
Senator in this body who will vote against it or has ever had an 
idea of voting against it. We hear from the Senator from Colo- 
rado that Bar bee & Smith and Stahlman have telegraphed to him 
inviting the creation of this committee and asking for an exana- 
iuation, and asking for a suspension of judgment until that ex- 
amination shall take place. Well, that would be wise; it would 
bo prudent; it would be manly; it would comport exactly with 
the supposed dignity of the Senatorial attitude in this country to 
do a thing of that kind, instead of getting up here in advance of 
an examination that we are about to institute and pronounce 
final judgment against Barbee & Smith and Stahlman and every- 
one else concerned in it, directly or indirectly, or who has the 
least responsibility for it, denouncing them all as robbers, and in- 
cluding Senators like the Senator from Florida in the denuncia- 
tion. 

Now, Mr. President, that is a cruelty which a man ought not 
to be provoked in by the expectation of encoiiraging some senti- 
ment of bitterness that may reside among his constituents against 
the people of other sections of the United States of America. That 
ought not to be done. That is not the way to treat a great sub- 
ject here. We are ready for the expose that you can make upon 
the Southern people, whether in the church or out of it, and when 
we come to compare notes with you gentlemen of the North about 

3447 



47 

what has been leached out of this Government by men who have 
received your countenance ajid support even in the office of Pres- 
ident of the United States, i think we will come out scot-free, or 
perhaps a little more than the scale's balance in our favor. I 
defy you to make your examinations. Here you want to put it 
upon tliat ground. Go back and look into history and let it be 
done. We are ready. 

Why, sir, the women of the South, if the United States wants 
this money put back into the Treasury, will subscribe it out of 
their purses and put it back. What will you do when you get it 
here? Will you give it to some of the concerns you have already 
stall-fed until you can not manage them? Will you turn to the 
sugar trust that you are always assisting? Will you turn it back 
into the Credit Mobilier? Will you go out and correct the frauds 
that have been practiced, and are now being conducted, upon the 
Union and Central Pacific railroads? What will you do with the 
money when you get it back? Have you got some pet fraud or 
thief you want to give it to? If you have, we will vote it back to 
yon, if you make the motion. 

No. sir; this money would burn the pockets of the people of the 
United States when it got back there upon these grounds. These 
people in the South have been dealt with by their book agent In a 
way that mortifies them to death. These agents ought tobe dealt 
with, and doubtless will be dealt with, not merely in their church 
relations, but in their social relations. They will be excommuni- 
cated from decent society in the South, professional and nonpro- 
fessional. There is but one judgment that the South ever pro- 
nounces upon men who engage in falsehoods, prevarications, and 
lies like these men are accused of telling and seem to be only too 
guilty of. There is no forbearance in the South toward such peo- 
ple; there is no toleration of such conduct; and this Senate will 
see that that is so. 

If Barbee & Smith deserve condemnation after the Senate of the 
United States has examined into this sub.iect, you will find that 
that condemnation has been anticipated by the judgment of the 
Southern people. If this man Stahlman, who seems to be a Ger- 
m.an and who was floated into the case somewhere or other and 
Bomehow or other, has violated, as he seems to have violated, his 
duty and the obligations of a man to tell the truth, under the cir- 
cumstances — if he has done so, that man will be tabooed. He is 
worse ruined now than if he had succeeded in getting a hundred 
million dollars out of this thing. There is no chance to put him 
in any worse attitude than he is in to-day. 

At the same time we demand this investigation for ourselves 
and our own protection as well as for yours. There can come no 
stain upon Southern character, in church or state, or in any other 
respect, that the South is not always ready and willing to respond 
to it and to demand an investigation. So let us go on and pass 
this resolution, raise the committee, let the testimony be taken, 
and then we will consider what is best to be done in order to reach 
the ends of justice. 

I reaffirm, Mr. President, upon my judgment at least, and that 
has been the judgment of other men besides myself, that this is a 
strict legal demand and a perfectly just one. There is a man who 
has passed from this theater to his grave, whose eulogies we have 
lately pronounced here. He was par excellence the honest man of 
the Senate. That man was Isham G. Harris. This claim never 
had a firmer friend than Isham G. Harris, and he is the man who 
proposed the settlement of the claim on .$288,000. 
3M7 



48 

As a inemher of the committee who made the report, when I 
brought it to his seat here and showed it to him he advised me 
that it was better to put it at §288, OUO, because the officers of the 
United States Government had affirmed that that amount was due 
and there could not be any controversy about it. There was never 
a claim before the Senate that that honest and good man espoused 
with more lidelity and firmness than he did this claim, not as a 
beggar, not with importunity that the Senate Avould be generous 
and liberal to the South, but ho did it upon the cold lines of justice. 

Sir. I never felt firmer in my lile than 1 did when I vras asso- 
ciated with a man like that in the advocacy of a claim like this. 
I assert to-day in the face of the world and all the lawyers in it 
aud this whole Senate that there is not a man in the world who 
can take testimony in this cause and impeach the validity of that 
claim upon grounds of fact and law as it exists in the United 
States. 

Now let the claim go to the committee, and we will see in the 
outcome who is right about it. If nobody else here does it, I shall 
offer a resolution in the Senate directing the Judiciary Committee 
to inquire and report whether the claim be a valid, legal claim 
against the United States. 

Mr. BERRY. Mr. President, it had not been my purpose to 
say anything upon the passage of this resolution. I think that 
the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr, Lodge] did the right thing 
when he introduced the resolution. 1 think it ought to be passed, 
and that the committee ought to make the investigation. I should 
not have said anything now, except it seemed to me that the Sena- 
tor from New Hampshire [Mr. Chandler] had sought, if possi- 
ble, to throw some kind of a stain upon a great church of the 
South, even extending the insinuation to some of the Senators 
who represent Southern States on this floor. I do not think any- 
thing more unjust and unfair than that could be presented to 
any body. We who come from the South have all felt a regret and a 
sorrow which he can not understand that this matter should come 
in the way it has, and should show that the agents of this great 
church, Barbee & Smith, bad sent false telegrams to Senators here. 

Now, Mr. President, I want to say in regard to the Methodist 
Church in the Southern States that it is amongst the most power- 
ful and influential religious bodies in that entire section. It is 
represented in every State in the South. Its ministers have been 
for years amongst the most God- tearing, self-sacrificing, and 
reputable men of all the peo))le throughout the South. They 
have lor years and years sought to spread the truth as they un- 
derstood it, to redress wrong, to bring relief to the suffering and 
consolation to the dying. 

And the members of the Southern Methodist Episcopal Church 
are honest people and would scorn to take a dollar from any 
source whatever that was obtained under false pretenses or by a 
false statement, and when the facts of thismatter are fully shown — 
when they come to light— I pledge my word in advance that wliat- 
ever is honest and whatever is honorable in the minds of honest 
and honorable men, that I believe the ministers and the members 
of that church throughout the entire Southern land with one voice 
will say shall be done. That, I think, is the universal feebng. 
Therefore the attempt to make political capital or to put a stain 
upon the great body of people who belong to the Southern Metho- 
dist Church or the Southern jjeople, I repeat, was imworthy of 
the occasion, and there was no excuse for it, as no word had been 

3147 



49 

tittered here by any man on this side of the Chamber except in 
condemnation of what seemed to be the acts of these agents of the 
Book Concern and the agent that they had here. 

Now, Mr. President, 1 do not know Barbee & Smith. I do not 
know Stahlman. I never, to my knowledge, saw him in my life or 
either of the other gentlemen. If at the time the telegrams came 
to the Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] and the Senator from 
Tennessee [Mr. Batf.] Barbee & Smith knew that a contract ex- 
isted to pay this man §100,000 of the monej', no language that can 
be nsed upon this floor can be too severe to denounce the infamy 
of their action. 

I care not whether they made the contract or somebody else 
made it; I care not whether it was for 40 per cent or 35 per cent, 
if they knew the contract existed when they sent these telegrams 
then they intended to deceive the Senate into appropriating money 
which they could not otherwise obtain. It is simply obtaining 
money under false pretenses, and if it was a private transaction 
between individuals and they knowingly bj' such false statements 
obtained money it would send them, and ought to send them, to 
the penitentiary of the State in which they live. 

Now. I do not know whether they knew it or not. As the Sen- 
ator from Alabama [Mr. Morgan] said, let us bring them before 
this committee and see if they did know it. If they did know it, 
let them be denounced and condemned, as they will be by the 
members of the Methodist Chitrch from one end of the land to the 
other. If they knew that this contract existed for 35 per cent 
and seek to excuse themselves on the miserable pretext that the 
Senator from Florida had named 40 per cent as the rumored 
amount, then, Mr. President, the excuse, if possible, is more in- 
famous than the original offense. No words or no language they 
can use, if they knew such a contract existed, can excuse them. 
But let us bring them before the committee. Let us give them a 
chance to say and let them say what knowledge they liad in re- 
gard to this transaction. If they had the knowledge, then noth- 
ing can excuse them for the telegrams, because they intended to 
deceive and did deceive. 

Mr. President, I have no doubt but that it is jvist as the Senator 
from Alabama says, that the claim is a just one and the Govern- 
ment owed the money. Yet had it been known in the Senate that 
§100,000 was to go to any agent the bill could not have passed this 
body, and every Senator here knows that it could not have been 
passed. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The hour of 2 ©"clock has arrived. 
It becomes the duty of the Chair to lay before the Senate the un- 
finished business, which is Senate bill 3414. 

Mr. TELLER. I hope that the unfinished business will be laid 
aside. 

Mr. LODGE. I hope we can lay a;5ide temporarily the unfin- 
ished business and dispose of the resolution now. 

Mr. FORAKER. The resolution, I think, is likely to take a good 
deal of time, and I am very anxious to have the unfinished busi- 
ness taken up and considered. I hope Senators will let the reso- 
lution go over until to-morrow and let the unfinished business be 
proceeded w"ith. 

Mr. BATE. I will state to the Senator from Ohio Ihnt there is 
no one else on this side who wants to be heard. The debate is 
ended so far as this side of the Chamber is concerned. 

Mr. WILSON. I desire to speak only about three minutes, as 
a matter of record. 



50 

Mr. FORAKER. In view of what Senators say as to tlie likeli- 
hood of our getting to a vote soon, 1 will not insi.-^t on the unfin- 
ished business being taken up now, and will consent that it may 
be temj orarily laid aside. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair will then recognize the 
Senator from Washington. 

Mr. WILSON. Mr. President, on Thursday last when the reso- 
lution was being discussed 

Mr. FORAKER. I dislike to yield indefinitely. I suggest that 
there should be some fixed time agreed upon when the resolution' 
may be concluded and the unfinislied business may be taken up. 
I have been giving way so often that I feel like insisting upon 
that. In view of what Senators have said I do not think more 
than thirty minutes additional time will be required to dispose of 
the resolution. I should like to have it the understanding that I 
yield only for thirty minutes. 

Mr. LODGE. At the end of thirty minutes 

Mr. BATE. Mr. President, I wish to correct my statement. I 
understand that there are two or three Senators over here who 
desire to be heard. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Thirty minutes is suggested. 

Mr. LODGE. In that case, I ask that the resolution may go 
over until to-morrow without prejudice. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. It will require unanimous consent 
to have it taken up to-morrow. 

Mr. LODGE. It will require unanimous consent. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. Is unanimous consent given that the 
resolution may lie over until to-morrow? 

Mr. LODGE. And that it may come up after the morning busi- 
ness and be disposed of. 

Mr. FORAKER. I do not like to interfere with the Senator 
from Washington, who has only a few remarks to make. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Senator from Washington has 
the right to proceed, as the Chair understood, with his remarks 
to-day, if ho desires to do so. By unanimous consent the resolu- 
tion is laid over until to-morrow morning. 

Mr. WILSON. I prefer, if there be no other business interposed, 
to occupj' only about two minutes in the statement I am about to 
make. As I may not be here to-morrow, I will take this oppor- 
tunity, if no Senator objects. 

The VICE-PRESIDEiSTT. The unfinished business is laid aside, 
then, until the Senator from Washington concludes. 

Mx'. WILSON. Mr. President, I desire to correct a mere matter 
of record, which occurred on Thursday last, when the honorable 
Senator from Florida [Mr. Pasco] was making his explanations. 
And I desire to say that thematter is sufficiently unpleasant to him, 
in my judgment, as far as action in concerned, without having it 
called up here in the method and manner that it has been. I think, 
from what I have read of his statement, that his action has been 
entirely honorable, as well as the Senator from Tennessee [Mr. 
Bate]. I am very glad as a Senator upon this side to make this 
public statement of that fact. We have all been more or less de- 
ceived in this matter, and I do not feel that it is incumbent upon 
this side or upon the other side to find fault entirely with what 
has ti-anspired. 

When the honorable Senator from Florida was speaking I in- 
terrupted him with a question. I must say I feel as one Senator 
that somebody, some one in authority, must have known that the 
3447 



51 

contract for 35 per cent of this claim was in existence, and there 
seems to be the entire blame in my mind. They certainly could 
not have made the contract after the claim was passed. Certainly 
they miiat have made a contract prior to its passage, and if they 
made that contract it must have been known to the agents of the 
Methodist Book Concern Soiith. 

Mr. LODGE. They admit it. 

Mr. WILSON. They admit it novv-, but they did not admit it 
in the telegram and letter to the honorable Senator from Florida. 
They said in that statement that there was no such contract as 
one for 40 per cent. It is a mere quibble upon the amount m ex- 
istence. 

Mr. JONES of Arkansas. Does tlie Senator from Washington 
by saying"" some one in authority" mean some one in authority 
in connection with this Book Concern? 

Mr. WILSON. With the Book Concern. That is what I mean. 

Mr. JONES of Arkansas. His remark has, of course, no rela- 
tion whatever to the committee of the Senate? 

Mr. WILSON. Oh, none; absolutely none. I am willing to 
take my full part in whatever occurred here. Absolutely none. 

Mr. BATE. I beg to call the attention of the Senator from 
Washington to one point in regard to the communication made 
to the Senator from Florida and to mj'self . The communication 
from Barbee & Smith to me was not" 40 per cent, but any other 
per cent. They denied it. 

Mr. WILSON. Oh, I think the Senator from Tennessee has 
acted, as far as we are concerned, in entire good faith in this 
matter, 

I had occasion in my interruption to ask the Senator from Flor- 
ida the qiiestion if §100,000 had been paid. The fact is that on this 
side of the Chamber they voted the claim through in a large meas- 
XIT6 because the amount was to go to the superannuated and worn- 
out preachers, which is the fact, because I understand that all the 
profits of the Methodist Book Concern South is for that purpose. 
Whatever fund would go into the concern would naturally be for 
the benefit of that class of people and their widows and orphans. 
It was with that idea that we passed the claim through here, and 
it has been well said it could not have been passed if it had been 
for a single moment understood that 30 per cent, or $100,000, 
would be paid for the passage of the claiui through Congress. 

Now, I made that statement, and inadvertentlj", for I am not 
very well versed in the Methodist Church affairs, I supposed 
that those who operated for them, like the Book Agents, Barbee & 
Smith, were men largely in authority, and inadvertently I some- 
what criticised the Methodist Church South. On Friday, when 
the honorable Senator from Georgia [Mr. Clay] made his speech, 
he took occasion to say: 

The Senator from Wa.shington does this iioWo institution a great injustice 
when ho attompt-s to make its ministry and membership responsibU lor tlie 
conduct of those agents. 

Now, Mr. President, nothing was further from my intention 
than that. 1 have a very profound respect for that church. I 
think they are composed of a vast number of good people, who 
are very much humiliated and very much chagrined at what has 
transpired in regard to this claim. Nothing was further from my 
intention than to do them any injustice. Therefore I hope, for 
the cause of religion, for the cause of the church, that the mere 
interjection into the remarks of the Senator from Florida was un- 

3147 



52 

true and false and I have been guilty of doing the Methodist 
Church South a very grave injustice. I hope that will transpire, 
Mr. President, when all the facts are known in regard to this very 
deplorable transaction. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The Chair lays before the Senate the 
unfinished business, being Senate bill 3414. 

Mr. LODGE. I desire to renew my request for unanimous 
consent that the pending resolution of investigation may go over 
without prejudice and retain its i)lace, so that it may come up at 
the conclusion of the morning business to-morrow. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. It has been so ordered by unanimous 
consent. 

Mr. LODGE. Very well; it has been so ordered. I did not 
■want the resolution to go to the Calendar. 



Tuesday, June J//, ISOS. 

Mr. LODGE. I ask for the regular order. 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The regular order is called for; and 
the Chair lays before the Senate resolution No. 3^3, offered by the 
Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodge]. 

Mr. COCKRELL. Has the resolution been read? 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The resolution will be read. 

The Secretary read the resolution submitted by Mr. Lodge on 
the 9th instant, as follows: 

Resolved, That tho Committee on Claims be directed to inquire and report 
to whom the money was paid under the chiim of the Methodist Book Concern 
South; and also as to all circumstances connected with the passage of the bill 
providing for the payment of said claim, and with the subsequent payment 
of the money under said act of Congress. 

Mr. PASCO. Mr. President, I have a few words further to say 
in reference to this matter before it comes to a vote. There 
seemed to be such a persistent effort made yesterday to put me in 
a wrong position on this subject, that I desire to add to what I 
have said heretofore, although I think I have very clearly made 
known my position and think that the Senate fully understands 
it; but there seemed to have been a malicious effort made yester- 
day to show that 1 had endeavored to deceive the Senate; that I 
v/as derelict in some way or committed some improper act in con- 
nection with this matter, and so I wish to put upon the record a 
few further statements of facts in this connection. 

I used all possible diligence at the time the bill was under dis- 
cussion and put the Senate in possession of the exact situation 
with reference to the rumors which were floating about the Sen- 
ate Chamber and about the Capitol. I gave the Senate all the 
facts that I had been able to obtain. I wrote to the Book Agents 
and asked them to make a full statement in connection with the 
matter. My letter is in the Record. I got two telegrams from 
them, both of which are also in the Record. There are other 
statements of a similar character made by other Senators, and the 
Senate in its action was influenced not alone by an opinion of mine, 
not alone by any statement of mine, but also by the statements 
which were made through me and other Senators in connection 
with the matter. 

I call attention to the remarks of the senior Senator from Mas- 
sachusetts I Mr. Hoar] made at the time, and I think they em- 
body the opinions of Senators generally upon the subject when the 
3447 



53 

bill was passed and show tlie influences under wliicli the Senate 
acted. The Senator from Massachusetts said: 

Mr. Hoar. The member of the House of Representatives from that district 
informs me and authorizes me to say that the gentlemen who have cliarge 
of this claim are the Rov. Dr. Barbee, a clergyman of eminent and high and 
pure character, and Mr. Smith, a layman, but a man also devoted toreligioua 
work, being superintendent of a Sunday school and active in its manage- 
ment. They are the Book Agents, so called, and they have both personally 
informed him that no money has been expended and there is no outstanding 
debt or obligation for any such service. 

Then I stated that the telegram which I had just read was from 
those gentlemen, the Book Agents. The Senator from Massachu- 
setts then said: 

Mr. Hoar. Very well; my addition to it is the simple statemorife r.f *Uo 
member who is their neighbor and friend. 

I ought not to have interrupted the Senator from Maine for this purpose, 
but I wi.sh to suggest that it seoms to mo it is a pretty serious affront to men 
of high character and standing, representing a concern of high standing, to 
put into a bill a proviso that they have not traded with claim agents and 
lobbyists, after that asertion on their part. 

Mr. President, with those facts before us, other Senators were 
influenced ais was the Senator from Massachusetts, and the Senate 
decided to pay this claim, and decided that no amendment like 
that suggested by the junior Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. 
Lodge] was necessary or proper; and the bill passed under those 
circum.stances. 

There was no agency on my part, direct or indirect, to deceive 
the Senate. There can be no agency in wrongdoing. All are 
principals in wrongdoing: there is no such thing as an agency in 
such a connection; and when it was stated yesterday by the Sen- 
ator from New Hampshire [Mr. Chandler] that I was an agent 
deceiving the Senate he did himself great injustice in making a 
statement that had so little foundation in it, a statement that 
was actually free from the principle of truth. I put in the 
Record yesterday my views and statement in connection with 
that, and I renew and repeat them here now, so that there may be 
no mistake as to what his remarks implied or to the way in which 
I met them. 

It was stated also by the Senator from New Hampsljire that I pro- 
posed in the remarks which I made to the Senate a few days ago 
that nothing should be done. I thought if he had listened to the re- 
marks which I made at the time he would have known that I very 
clearly indicated my views that an investigation conld properly bo 
made. But, Mr. President, the charges are not yet proven. They 
are at present only charges, I said the other day that I feared they 
were true; and the telegram which was read yesterday, addressetl to 
the Senator from Colorado [Mr. Teller] , strengthens me in the be- 
lief or fear that these charges are true. Their telegram seems like a 
plea of confession and avoidance. As they have noticed the action 
which is going on here, my sincere regret is that they were not 
able to telegraph back promptly that the statements which had 
been here presented, which were damaging to their good name and 
their reputation as truthful men, were false; that the telegrams 
which they sent to me contained the truth; and that no such sum 
of money was ]iaid as alleged to this claim agent. There is, how- 
ever, no such denial. They only ask us to suspend judgment and 
to refrain from comment. But we have not arrived at a time when 
judgment is to be pronounced upon this matter. We have only 
entered upon the preliminary stages. We propose to authorize a 
committee to determine the facts, and tlien, when those facts are 

S447 



oi 

(determined and presented to the Senate, it will be time for us to 
pronounce our judgment. 

I still shall be very much gratified, Mr. President, to find that 
the facts are not as stated; but if they are true, then will come 
the time for us to determine what course the Senate is to take. I 
stated in my remarks that the United States Government and the 
people of the United States had not been wronged in this matter, 
and I still adhere to that view. 

The report that was made upon the bill to the Senate based the 
claim upon the idea that the sum mentioned in the bill was actu- 
ally due to this fund. I read from the closing words of that 
report: 

But tliis case appeals not only to the generosity of the Government, but to 
a sentiment of justice. The pul)lisliing house was the largest i)rinting estab- 
lishment south of New York at the beginning of the late war, excepting only 
the Government Printing Office at Washington; its use was of great impor- 
tance to the Government: a vast amount of printing was done there at a large 
saving to the Treasury, and the payment of the sum proposed in the bill will 
bo a fair reimbursement to the claimants for the use and consumption of 
their property. 

Under all the circumstances of the case, the committee recommend the 
payment of the claim and recommend that the bill do pass. 

That was the report of the committee, and the recommendation 
was indorsed when the Senate passed the bill. But, Mr. Presi- 
dent, I am v^'ell aware that some Senators did not accept that 
view, and that they were acting in a generous manner toward 
the publishing house in paying this claim, not as a strictly legal 
one, but in a liberal spirit they thought, in view of all the circum- 
stances, that the amount should be paid; and they were influ- 
enced by such a spirit, but the claim no doiibt would have been 
paid and the bill would have been passed whether it was under- 
stood that any large amount was to go to a claim agent or not. 
As I said in my remarks a few days ago, the only ditferepce would 
have been that we should have tried by a suitable amendment to 
protect the beneficiaries of this trust in whose interest we passed 
the bill from the action of their trustees in paying out au unrea- 
Bonable amount to this claim agent. 

It does not follow, as a matter of course, that there would be 
any obligation on the part of the officials of the church to order 
that this money should be paid back, but all those questions are 
in the future, and they will be determined when we come to i^ass 
our judgment upon the facts of the case. 

So far as I atn concerned, Mr. President, I am not concerned so 
much about what is to be done with reference to the money; I 
am one of those who regret very much the growing power of 
money in this country. If its power is so great in the section in 
which I live as to induce these trustees to make representations 
to the Senate which are misleading or false in order to recover a 
large amount of money, or to influence this wealthy man who 
acted as their agent to take from this fund an unreasonable 
amount for his own private purposes, when the body of the fund 
belongs to the church and its earnings to the widows and children 
and the old preachers who have served the church in the days of 
their usefulness, it has made greater advances than I had sup- 
posed, and its influence is to be deplored. It is a matter of very 
great and sincere regret and mortification if any body of men in 
the section of country in which I live have allowed themselves to 
be placed in a po-sition where such charges can be established 
against them. 

3447 



55 

I think, then, Mr. President, that it will be sufficient for its to 
pass the resolution at present, and to ascertain the facts. If they 
are true, the report will be presented to the Senate, and it will be 
for the Senate then to determine what action shall be taken; but 
I think there is a still greater obligation upon the church offi- 
cials, the college of bishops, or whoever else direct the genersi 
affairs of the church— I think there is a greater call upon theiu 
than iipon the Senate to have an investigation of the conduct of 
their book agents made either during our investigation or prior 
or subsequent to it, so that they may ascertain whether there has 
been any wrongdoing in their church that requires correction or 
discipline. 

The Southern Methodist Church is not the subject of these ac- 
cusations. If high officials in that church have gone wrong"j 
there is a power there to investigate their conduct, and the church 
will know what judgment to pass upon them if they have been 
guilty of deceit or misrepresentation. I have full faith in the 
integrity of its leading officials to direct and manage its affairs, 
and believe they will deal with any guilty officials who have de- 
parted from their line of duty and who have wasted a fund which, 
it was their solemn duty to protect. 

Now, Mr. President, let this investigation be made. I \^ash to see 

all the facts brought out. As I said before when I addressed the 

Senate, so far as 1 am concerned I will do all in my power to aid 

the Senate in getting possession of everything that is properly con- 

«-3 nected with the case. 

■fe Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President, I should not have felt called 
J upon to again address the Senate upon this resolution had it not 
been for what I understood to be an expression of the Senator 
from Florida [Mr. Pasco] to the effect that 1 had yesterday mali- 
ciously misrepresented the action of Senators. 

Mr. President, I did not intend yesterday to deal in an unkind 
spirit with any Senator who voted for or advocated the orignal 
appropriation. I am sure nothing could have been further from 
my thought than to say anything unkind or displeasing to the 
senior Senator from Tennessee [Mr. Bate] . I did think that, con- 
sidering the assurances, if I may use that word without offense — 
the assurances that had been given to the Senators that there was 
no fee to be paid in this case, there ought now to be something 
more than discussion of the subject. I did think, to be precise, 
that the Senators, possibly the Senate by direct action, ought to 
induce the Methodist Book Company to sue for and endeavor to 
recover back this money from Mr. Stahlman. My thoughts did 
not go so far as those of the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. 
Hoar] or the Senator from Michigan [Mr. Burrows]. 1 did not 
go so far as to say that I thought either $188,000 or the $388,000 
ought to be returned to the Treasury of the United States. I only 
thought that the Methodist Book Company, whose agents could 
not legally have made any such contract as was put in force, ought 
to pursue the money and recover it back into their own treasury for 
such action thereafter as they might deem it expedient to take. 

Now. that was all i intended to say. I was not aware that the 
Senator from Florida was so sensitive as he appeared to be, and I 
was not aware that any Senators were sensitive on this subject or 
thought that any person would venture to attribute to any one of 
them" any blame or fault in the matter. Having said so much, 
however, I will venture further to .«ay that the assurances which 
were given to the Senate on the inquiry made by the Senator from 



56 

South Carolina [Mr. Tillman], and which resulted in the motion 
of the Senator from Indiana to table the amendment of the Sen- 
ator from Massachusetts, were very broad. The Senator from 
Florida [Mr. PascoJ, on page 2910 of the Record of March 8, 
1898, said of the charge that a fee was to be paid: 

I was thoroughly satisfied that the report had no foundation whatever in 
fact. 

Later he said: 

I made the statement fully in the letter, whicdi set forth that some agents 
here would get a very large percentage of the amount. I knew that was not 
possible, because they had no aiithority to make such a bargain. 

The Senator also said: 

I am satisfied that there is no foundation whatever for the report. 
Again he said that he hoped the amendment of the Senator 
from Massachusetts would not be offered, and added: 

And I can assure the Senate that there is no necessity whatever for the 
amendment. 

The Senator from Alabama [Mr. Morgan] said he did not think 
it was a fair occasion for anyone to "rake up technical points" 
for the purpose of defeating a bill of this character. A little later, 
when the Senator from Maine [Mr. Hale] asked, "How does an 
attorney come into the case at all? " the Record shows this: 

Mr. Morgan and others. There is no attorney. 

The junior Senator from Georgia [Mr. Clay] gave similar 
assurances, and the junior Senator from Alabama [Mr. PettusJ 
said: 

Where I live and in that whole section of the country there is not a respect- 
able lawyer who would dare to charge anything for any service rendered to 
a church. 

The Senator from Arkansas [Mr. Berry] said: 

We have every assurance that no fees are to be paid. 

Mr. President, there is the record, and there would not have been 
any criticism at all of me if I had only used the right word in 
speaking of what had happened. I am sorry that I did not use tho 
right word, so that the Senator from Florida would not have 
found it necessary to tell me that my statement was false, which 
was, of course, a very brave thing to say, but after all not polite, 
in this body. The amenities of life should not be disregarded in 
the Senate of the United States, and gentlemen in this body should 
not use language here which they would not use anywhere else. 

Fortunately, I have found the word I ought to have used. I said 
the Senator from Florida was an agent. He denied that he had had 
any agency, either direct or indirect, in deceiving the Senate. This 
is the record: He said on the 9th of June that the assurance-was 
made that there was no contract existing to pay a fee, and that 
the statement that was made was made by him: 

That statement was made through me. It came from tho Book Agents 
themselves, and as I was the medium of this communication, it is proper 
that I should say something in reference to the matter now that it has been 
brought up by the Senator from Massachusetts. 

There is the proper word. Singularly enough, the Senator from 
South Carolina [Mr. Tillman], who ought to have been a little 
more indignant than he has been about this fee, as he was the Sen- 
ator who first called it to the attention of Senators, seemed to 
think that I was "hounding" Senators. He used that not very 
polite word yesterday. I do not think anybody but the Senator 
from South Carolina would think that was a fair description of 
my speech. The Senator from South Carolina, when he spoke of 
8447 



57 

the transaction, was obliged to use another word because the word 
I had used was objectionable. I said •' agent." The Senator from 
South Carolina said: 

These gentlemen. Senators Bate and Pasco, have not deceived anybody, 
so far as I can see, Ijut they have been made the medium of deceiving the 
Senate as to the fee to ho paid the attorneys. 

Tliere, again, is the word I ought to have used. I have looked 
it up in tli3 dictionary to see what it means. This is from the 
Century Dictionary: 

ilediuiu. 

2. Anything which serves or acts intermediately; something by means of 
which an action is performed or an effect produced; an intervening agency 
or instrnmeutality. 

3. A person through whom, or through whose agency, another acts; spe- 
cifically, one who is supposed to be controlled in "speech and action by the 
will of another person or a disembodied being, as an animal magnetism and 
spiritualism; an instrument for the manifestation of another personality. 

That is the Century Dictionary. The Imperial Dictionary says: 

Medium. 

2. Sometliing intervening and also serving as a means of transmission or 
communication; necessary means of motion or action; instrumentality of 
communication; agency of transmission that by or through which anything 
is accomplished, conveyed, or carried on; agency; instrumentality. 

Specifically (n) a person through whom the action of another being is said 
to be manifested and transmitted by animal magnetism, or a person through 
whom spiritual manifestations are claimed to be made, especially one who is 
said to be capable of holding intercourse with the spirits of the deceased. 
Some mediums claim to have the power of floating in and moving through the 
air, of raising tables from the ground and keeping them suspended, "and of 
performing many other supernatural feats. 

Mr. President, I wish to substitute for the word " agent" and 
the word " agency " simply the statement that the Senator from 
Florida was the medium — being all that this word implies — of 
communicating the wicked contrivances of Messrs. Stahlmanand 
Barbee & Smith to the Senate. If they claim that they were in 
a trance when they did it, that they were as innocent of any 
wrongdoing or intentional wrongdoing or even of any conscious- 
ness of what they were doing as any spiritual medium whatever, 
I will admit that is true; and I really wish, in the interest of peace 
and hannony and ,so that the Senator from Florida might have 
omitted to b'e so very unkind and uncivil to me yesterday, that I 
had used the words "medium of communication." Then all 
would have been peace and happiness, and the Methodist Book 
Concern and Mr. Stahlman would have kept the money just the 
same. 

Mr. PASCO. Mr. President, the Senator from New Hampshire 
seems to have laughed himself out of the false charge he made, 
and I am glad that he has withdrawn it. I wish to read again the 
sentence containing the remark which he made to which I ob- 
jected; antl I am satisfied that every honorable gentleman will 
agree that I had good cause to complain when he used such re- 
marks iu connection with my name. On page 6i70 of the Record 
he said: 

But, Mr. President, my only noint is that the .subject is not to be dismissed 
either in this body or iuthe public foriim of conscience by the .Senator from 
Florida, who admits that he helped to deceive the Senate. 

When that charge was made against me, I felt aggrieved, and 
if I expressed more warmth than the Senator from New Hamp- 
shire thinks proper, it was because such charges are offensive to 
me. I can not sit quietly under an imputation of this Irind and I 
never will do so here or elsewhere. I am glad the Senator has 
explained his meaning more fully, and I am content that he has 
3U7 



58 

entertained the Senate in the amusing manner he has in withdraw- 
ing himself from the unfortunate position in which he was placed. 

Sir. CHANDLER. Only one word more. All I did say was 
that the Senator admitted that he helped to deceive the Senate. 
Of course the Senator meant that ho had been the medium of a 
communication whicli deceived the Senate. That I have already 
said. But the Senator from Florida, very peremptorily saying, 
"I want the Senator's attention right now," demanded that I 
shouhl retract the verj^ offensive words he said I had used. " Re- 
tract" is a threatening word, although the Senator said he did 
not intend to threaten. Yet, notsvithstanding the manner of ap- 
proach of the Senator, this is what I said, and I submit to the 
Senate that it Avas ample and complete: 

I will Fay that I do not think he intended to deceive the Senate. I think 
he acted in the most pei'foct good faith. I think ho sent his telegram to 
Messrs. Barbee & Smith and reported the denial by them in the most abso- 
lute and perfect good faith. If the Senator would rather I should say that 
he led the Senate into an error or caused the Senate to vote under a mistake, 
or anything else that is move euphonious, I will use that language; but all 
the same, Mr. President, the Senate was deceived. 

Afterwards, being still further called to account by my friend 
the Senator from Georgia [Mr. Bacon], I said: 

I have disclaimed all intention to make any unkind or unjust imputation 
on the Senator from Florida. My feelings of friendship for him are equal to 
those I entertain for the Senator from Georgia. They were all deceived; 
there is no doubt about that; and the Senate was deceived; and nobody did 
it except Barbee & Smith. Is that satisfactory? 

Mr. Bacox. That is all right 

Mr. Bate. I suppose the remarks of the Senator from Xew Hampshire 
apply to all who participated in the matter. 

Mr. CiiANDr/EU. Unquestionably. I should be very unwilling to put my- 
self in the attitude of believing, and I do not believe, that one single Senator 
on this floor knew that these fees had been agreed to be paid and did uot 
state it to the Senate or stated to the contrary. 

I think all this ought to have satisfied the Senator from Florida. 
I think it would have satisfied any native Southerner on the other 
side of the House when I had made my withdrawal as explicit as 
I did. The Senator persisted, and demanded that I should retract 
the very words he named for me to retract. Human nature is 
very much the same North and South, and I did not make any 
further retraction. But I have no desire to prolong the contro- 
versy with the Senator from Florida. I realize now, on looking 
the matter over, that the Senators were more sensitive than I 
thought they ought to be, and I have made my statement of my 
belief in their perfect sincerity and integrity and good faith as 
broad as I can, and I will repeat it again if the Senator from Ala- 
bama wants me to do so. 

Mr. MORGAN. Mr. President, I did not know that I had any- 
thing to do with the quarrel between the Senator from Florida 
and the Senator from New Hampshire, nor do I understand why 
the Senator from New Hampshire should attempt to lug me into 
it. The only word that he has quoted upon me is that I said the 
church had no attorney. My reason for saying that was that I 
made a report twenty years ago, about, and I have never heard of 
the case from tJiat time to this through any agent or attorney. 
No person has approached me about it in any way at all, and when 
it was stated on the floor of the Senate that Barbee & Smith had 
informed the Senate that there was no contract for the payment 
of fees, I felt assured that that must be true, knowing the char- 
acter of these men simply. I did not know them intimately at 
all, but I iinderstood that they were men of some considerable 
importance and great respectability. 

■.',H7 



59 

Mr. President, I desire to have the resolution read. I want to 
hear what is in it. 

Tiie VICE-PRESIDENT. The Secretary will read the resolu- 
tion. 

The Secretary read as follows : 

Resolved, That the Committee on Claims be directed to inqnire and report 
to whom the money was paid under the claim of the Methodist Book Concern 
.South, and also as to all circumstances connected with the passage of the 
bill providing for the payment of said claim and with the subsequent pay- 
ment of the money under said act of Congress. 

Mr. MORGrAN. Mr. President, I do not know what the pur- 
pose of the resolution is except to bring up all of the elements of 
.scandal that may exist in respect to this case. That probably is a 
congenial and pleasant movement on the part of some Senators, 
but I think when we undertake to pass resolutions they ought to 
have some definite and specific purjiose, and I should like to know 
whether it is the expectation of anybody in connection with the 
passage of this resolution that any steps are to be taken by the 
Senate or by the Congress for the purpose of revoking the pro- 
ceedings heretofore had on this claim, such, for instance, as re- 
quiring the Attorney-General of the United States to sue for and 
recover the amomifc of this vote or bill upon the ground that the 
Congress of the United States were deceived in rendering that 
judgment or in pressing that vote, and their being deceived we 
have the right lo treat the act as being null and recover the 
money. I do not know whether the Senate is invited to go to that 
extent or not. There is no definite purpose in the resolution ex- 
cept merely to open up an inquiry that will lead to exposure of 
some fraud or improprieties that are alleged to have been i^er- 
IDetrated in connection with this claim. 

This is rather an important step to be taken by the Senate, and 
it ought to have some end in view, some pur^iose in view. There 
are a number of claims which have been passed through the 
Senate of the United States and the other House which have been 
assisted through these bodies by what we call lobbyists; that is, 
attorneys and agents who have swarmed the corridors of this 
Capitol from year to year for twenty years and who have been 
promoting the passage of bills. It is a discreditable kind of pro- 
ceeding, because oftentimes such events as these occur. Some- 
times they are concealed, sometimes they come to the front and 
are exposed. 

Is a precedent to be established here now by this case that would 
lead to this result, that the Senate would proceed, after it had 
ascertained the facts, as everybody here has conceded they exist, 
to direct that the money should be recovered; proceed to repeal 
the act, if yovt please, or declare it null on the ground that it was 
obtained by fraud and undue influence? I do not know that un- 
due influence is alleged to have been exercised by Barbee & Smith 
or by Stahlman upon any Senator or any member of the House of 
Representatives or that his vote has been corrupted in any way. 
I do not understand that that proposition is involved here, and I 
can not understand, if that is not the fact, how one of these claim 
agents or one of these promoters of a claim can have very much 
evil influence in presenting the case, one side of it or the other 
side of it, to the minds of men who are intelligent enough to sit 
in the House of Representatives and in the Senate. You might 
as well say that a judge on the bench is corrupted if a corrupt 
man appears before him to argue a case which has not the founda- 
tion of truth and honesty. 

3447 



00 

The Senate in passing upon these claims acts, of course, in the 
double capacity of judging of their valulitj' and then appropriat- 
ing money to pay them. If we are going to the extent of saying 
that any claim which has been lobbied, as the word goes, through 
the Hoi;se of Representatives and the Senate must bo reinvesti- 
gated and a reconsideration of it must be had; that the parties 
involved in it must refund the money and must be punished for 
contempt of the Houses of Congress, we have a prettj' large con- 
tract ahead of us. No later than this morning, as I came to the 
Capitol, aman I have known here for twenty years, not intimately, 
but he appears to be a respectable man— he has been so presented 
to me — took it upon himself to inform me that a claim for ,$388,000 
iu favor of John Roach, for which I voted along with the balance 
of the members of the Senate (I think a majority, if not all of us), 
had been lobbied through the Congress of the United States by 
one Nat McKay, a lobby lawyer of Washington, as he told me (I 
do not know Mr. McKay), and that Mr. McKay got 50 per cent of 
it. That is a recent transaction, and that came through the Com- 
mittee on Naval Affairs. That was a contested claim. That was 
a claim which was pretty fiercely fought here, in the committee, 
and elsewhere, I think. That may be all fustian; there may be 
no truth in it. I do not assert that there is a symptom of truth 
in it, except merely the respectability of the man who told me it 
was so. 

I bring that to the attention of the Senate of tlie United States. 
I become a volunteer medium to inform the Senate of the United 
States that there are a number of cases, perhaps this one particu- 
larly, lying aroiand us here that demand investigation. Let us 
strike to the line. Let us understand what we are doing, whether 
we are merely amusing ourselves here by bringing up accusations 
against communities and churches and people whose hearts are 
tender upon questions of this sort, or whether we have an honest 
purpose in our hearts of trying to recover back for the United 
States money that has been improperly appropriated through the 
fraudulent pretenses and representations of other men; and if we 
commence it, let us go to the bottom of it. Let us investigate this 
question which I put before the Senate in regard to the action 
upon the John Roach case, and see whether or not there was actu- 
ally paid to this lobbyist 50 per cent on a claim of $388,000 on 
account of a demand that I always considered to be entirely just 
in favor of Mr. Roach and his heirs for some wrong treatment 
that he had received in the statement of his account for the build- 
ing of ships for the United States which are now floating upon 
the waters and are now engaged in fighting for the United States — 
good vessels. 

I do not think that this is a legitimate resolution. Yet I am 
going to vote for it. I am compelled to vote for it for the reason 
that it strikes at a great denomination in my own country of 
which my father and my mother were members and all my sisters 
were members, and I shall not stand on the floor of the Senate and 
hear those people impeached in any respect or have it said that 
they are delinquent in their moral duty because the Senator from 
New Hampshire thinks that they ought to proceed or somebody 
ought to proceed to recover this money froTn Barbee & Smith or 
Stahlman. They have been worse treated by far than the Senate 
of the United States or the Congress of the United States by this 
.transaction. Senators may amuse themselves here and trip lightly 
uyon their tongues accusations against great bodies of people in 
&U7 



61 

other sections of the country without feeling that there is the 
slightest responsibility about it, but the responsibility will come 
home to them. Whenever I am on this floor and they bring up 
accusations of that kind, they must back them up and carry them 
to results. 

I am not going to offer any amendment to the resolution; I am 
not in an attitude to do it; but I now pronounce the resolution 
not a sincere effort to get at justice and to have the money repaid 
to the United States out of which this Government has been de- 
frauded, for it has not been defrauded out of a cent, btit it is an 
effort merely to scandalize a great religious denomination in 
another section of the country, and I think, sir, for mere political 
IJurposes. 

Mr. LODGE. Mr. President, I did not intend to say another 
word in this debate, but what the Senator from Alabama has just 
said in regard to the resolution obliges me to say something. I 
am perfectly willing to put the resolution in any form, and I can 
say to the Senator from Alabama that the resolirtion, so far as I 
am concerned, is entirely sincere. I have cast no reflections on 
any section, on any church, on any body of people. My sole ob- 
ject was, on the information which had come to me, to expose 
what I considered scandalous methods employed by a lobbyist 
and by two representatives of the Methodist Book Concern in 
getting a great claim through the Senate. That, I thought, ought 
to be exposed. I never supposed the Government could recover 
the money. I have no doubt that the statement of the Senator 
from Alabama that the money was legally due is correct, but I 
thought that this exposure would help to correct a great abuse. 

I offered the amendment cutting oft' these attorneys and agents 
at the time the bill was here, and Senators got up and told me 
that it was an affront to honorable men even to offer siich an 
amendment. It now proves that I was correct and that it ought 
to have been put on the bill, and that if it had been the money 
would have gone to the great charity to which it was intended by 
the Senate that it should go, and not into the pocket of a profes- 
sional lobbyist or agent. I never thought we could recover the 
money for the Government. No such idea ever crossed my mind, 
and I want to say that in my judgnlent members of that great 
sect, that great denomination of Christians feel to-day the misfor- 
tune of tliis matter and the scandal involved in it infinitely more 
keenly than does the Senate of the United States or the House of 
Representatives. 

I certainly have no desire to cast the slightest reflection on a 
sect or on a section of the country. They have suffered more by 
this than anyone else, and I think we may leave it to them to 
rectify the wrong which has been done. After the Committee on 
Claims have reported as to the facts of the case, I should like to 
see them bring in a bill for a general law about the fees that these 
agents are to have, and make it impossible for agents for claims to 
get beyond a certain very small percentage of the claims. In that 
case we should not have a repetition of such a scandal as this, and 
Ave would reduce very perceptibly the number of claims which 
are knocking at the doors of the Treasury. 

Mr. BATE. Mr, President, I wish to say that I approve of the 
last suggestion of the Senator from Massachusetts as to lobbyists. 

Mr. MORGAN. So do I. 

Mr. BATE. 1 wish to see such action condemned, and I want 
to see them forbidden to come around the Senate. 

3417 



G2 

Mr. MORGAlSr. So do I. 

Mr. BATE. I think that is the seiitinieiit of tho Senate and 
that the splendid representative spirits who compose this body 
feel that way; bnt still, situated as we are, we are liable to be im- 
posed npon in many cases. Away with all such men who lobby 
around these corridors! And I believe such is the sentiment not 
only of the country but of this Senate as a body. I approve and 
indorse the language in this regard of the Senator from Massa- 
chusetts. "Away with lobbyists!" 

The VICE-PRESIDENT. The question is on agreeing to the res- 
olution offered by the Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. Lodge]. 

The resolutionwas agreed to. 
3 sir 

O 



LiBKHKY OF CONGRESS 



013 701 766 



